Dan N7HQ
That's the hometown. And I had already been, you know, obviously had been born. And my dad used his va to get a bigger home. And we. And I remember no other homes but this one. The man that lived there was a colonel in the air force, and he was a ham radio operator. I don't know his call, but I do remember everything about the room he had down in the basement, including the full set gold dust twins calling, you know, seeing the telephone pole he had as a tower. And I was just amazed at that room. The smell. The. It was warmer than the rest of the room because of all the tube gear was fired up. And I could, you know, and I could hear these crazy sounds coming out of the speaker.

Dan N7HQ
So that was, I still have a very vivid memory of that. And that really started my interest in radio and electronics. And so it was really natural for me to kind of go this direction. My mother, when I was, like, nine years old, gave me a crystal radio for getting a good report card at school. And I put that together, and for the longest time, I experimented with, like, can I hook it to my bed springs? Or what about the gutter on our house to, you know, what if I just take a long piece of magnet wire and stretch it out the window? Take it as far as I go? What? So I started experimenting with listening to whatever I could pick up on the, on that device. And. And then I got a paper route, and I would.

Dan N7HQ
It was, I was delivering the Denver Post, which was a. It was, it was nice. It was a nice paper because I only had, like, I don't know, 60 or so customers compared with a hundred or whatever, that the local paper was.

Eric 4Z1UG
The Denver Post then. Was that an afternoon paper?

Dan N7HQ
In those days, it was an afternoon paper except for Sunday morning. So you had to deliver Sunday morning. But anyway, I, you know, would be on my bicycle delivering papers. And then every so often, I'd see another kid delivering the same paper. Our paper routes were adjacent to each other, and one day we just stopped and chatted for a little bit. Turns out that we both had an interest in radio and rocketry, of all things. So we struck up a friendship, you know, we decided that, well, if we combine our routes, we could make it delivery much more efficient. And we would take these little cb walkie talkies and communicate, like, where we are. So we end at pretty much the same time, and then we go have an ice cream cone or, you know, hamburger or something like that.

Dan N7HQ
His name is Martin Rowe. Was WB0JNV. In fact, he's still active as a ham. Lives up in South Dakota. But we started trying to figure out how we could communicate between our two houses, which was about a mile away from each other. 100 milliwatts just doesn't get you there, right? And so went through. I went through the same sort of exercise. Well, let's just stretch a long wire, make the antenna bigger. Knew nothing about radio. And then his brother was studying to be an electronics engineer and told us, well, you should get your ham radio license. So we both studied to do that and we both got our, you know, our novice ticket and then we kind of graduated, but then we could communicate back and forth.

Eric 4Z1UG
Did you have the resources there? Did you find the amateur radio club? Did you find books in the library? How was it that you and Martin were able to kind of go to that next step?

Dan N7HQ
His brother had an old receiver and one of the old ARC-5, I can't remember the model number of it, transmitter that was converted to like 40 meters and 80 meters. And so that was sort of like how we learned the hands on part of it. But the ARRL, went out and both bought the handbook, and that was the Bible. I mean, that was really what we used to study for our exams. There was no question pool or anything like that back in that day. You really had to know your stuff. And we would quiz each other on each chapter and we stayed more or less in lockstep. He was much better student than I was, but were pretty much on parallel paths. Then I went to a private boarding school and the.

Eric 4Z1UG
In the Colorado Springs area.

Dan N7HQ
No, this is in Canyon City, Colorado. It was a little south and a little west about 45 miles. And it was Holy Cross Abbey was the name of the. The school still is still around. In fact, I just went to the 50th class reunion. The school has since closed, and the monastery there is up for sale if someone wants to buy it. It's only $7 million for this beautiful gothic monastery and grounds. It's just a shame that it's falling into disrepair yeah.

Eric 4Z1UG
But it's also in a great touristy area. Right. You've got the bridge, Royal Gorge.

Dan N7HQ
Right. The ski area. So anybody that's interested listening to this podcast.

Eric 4Z1UG
Yeah. House on the beach is $7 million. You could have a whole abbey.

Dan N7HQ
Yeah. Yeah. Or California. You know, you could, you know, like a condo. There is about 7 million, depending where you are. Anyway, the school was. It was. It was really a. It was an excellent school. My situation was such that I needed to make a little extra money, and so they had a program that allowed you to do some work, and you would get paid a stipend, basically, for spending money while you were there. And the things that you could do were basically dish out food at the cafeteria or go shovel manure in the. In the stables. But there was also a spot for a lab assistant to the chemistry and physics professor that was there, you know, and I was just basically watching test tubes. And so I said, okay, I'll sign up for that, and I got it.

Dan N7HQ
That seemed like an interesting. A little more interesting than any other kinds of jobs. But to my delight, the basement of the chemistry and physics lab building was packed with electronics gear, and they had a ham radio station and an AM radio station that had been shut down a decade before I got there, and nobody took any interest in it. And it had the gold dust twins, which just tickled my memory.

Eric 4Z1UG
Brought your nostalgia back.

Dan N7HQ
And so I asked for permission if I could. This basement was just amazing. I mean, all the parts they had, because they had. They had electronics courses there at some point, you know, in the past, but they had long since stopped that course. But I asked permission if I could work on it, told him I had a license and got permission to do that. So I set about firing up the ham radio station at the Holy Cross Abbey and. And also the AM station that they had there. It was. It was. The license had expired, but the transmitter was still there. And so I spent most of my spare time just really immersing myself in radio and to be able to talk to my Martin, who was 45 miles away, that you kind of lose touch with people.

Dan N7HQ
But that was a really great way to stay in touch. But I had an absolute blast, and I was the only student out of, you know, 230 students. So I had. It was just like my shop. I may have been a little isolated there, and people thought I was kind of weird, but, you know, that's where I learned an awful lot about what to do and what not to do with. With old tube gear. So, anyway, that's the. The Genesis story. And ever since then, every good thing that has happened to me in my life has been because of amateur radio or radio in general. Everything. I met my wife. I played it. I played in a band. Played in a rock and roll band in the midwest, and I met my wife in Rapid City, South Dakota.

Eric 4Z1UG
What was the name of your band?

Dan N7HQ
The first one was called Milestone, and were. We started off with two of them, just two. So were duo. We would play holiday. We called it the Holiday Inn Circuit. Right. So we would. We would play in bars at the various holiday inns and wherever our agent would book us. I had a Drake TR-22C that I kept with me that was.

Eric 4Z1UG
A two meter portable. Luggy talkie.

Dan N7HQ
Yeah, Luggie talkie. And it. And I had the common repeater frequencies in it. And this was before they had access tones or anything like that. So I'd usually be able to find a repeater. And then, of course, people would listen to the direct channels more frequently back.

Eric 4Z1UG
Then, like 5276-3494 right. I think they called the TR-22 that because it had 22 pairs of crystals.

Dan N7HQ
Boy, you know, I still have it.

Eric 4Z1UG
I remember that rig. It was pre portables. The portables we had in those days were Motorola surplus, like the HT 200 and HT 220s, but there weren't a lot of ham radio portables quite yet. I think Wilson came out with something standard.

Dan N7HQ
It took d cell batteries, so you could literally take it with you. They didn't last long. It was good for maybe, you know, a couple of hours, and then you'd have to replace batteries. So you quickly learned that rechargeable batteries, although they were fairly nascent, was more economical than even with the radio shack battery card. Right. You couldn't supplement. You just didn't have enough money to do that.

Eric 4Z1UG
And those batteries were nicads. I remember nicads for the HT 220. They were expensive.

Dan N7HQ
Dollar.

Eric 4Z1UG
$50 to $100 in seventy's dollars.

Dan N7HQ
That was expensive. But the math was better.

Eric 4Z1UG
It was, yeah.

Dan N7HQ
I mean, it took like eight decals, right? And besides the weight, I mean, that just. You had to have a carrying strap, and it had this little rubber duckies were just coming out.

Eric 4Z1UG
So you had a collapsible antenna.

Dan N7HQ
I had a collapsible antenna. I had that with me. And. And I would be able to talk with, you know, when I would. When we would roll into a town like Rapid City, I would be able to introduce myself.

Eric 4Z1UG
What instrument did you play?

Dan N7HQ
I played guitar and keyboards from the.

Eric 4Z1UG
Video can tell that I actually have a similar interest.

Dan N7HQ
Well, you talked about the shows that you did. But it was something that, I mean, it supplemented the supplemented income.

Eric 4Z1UG
Yes, yes.

Dan N7HQ
You know, after I got married, you know, I played in a local bandaid, more local, regional. Probably better then. That was a full fledged four or five piece. Five piece. And it was called FM and it was a cover band. I mean, were all sort of COVID bands back then. But this was while I was in Rapid City. And the great thing about Rapid City is you had leed in Deadwood and the big days of 76 festival that they had that was just built in. You know, I was in Leedon Deadwood back then. It was just. The only reason you'd go to was because of the bars that were there. Right. So I played in. I played in the same bar that while Bill, was it. Wild Bill Hickok was. Was shot and killed. So that's kind of an interesting.

Eric 4Z1UG
So you met your wife in Rapid City playing in the band?

Dan N7HQ
I met my wife in Rapid City. Well, ham radio didn't play. She came to see me play, and that's where I met her. But Ham radio played a role there because after we met, we wanted to go have breakfast someplace. And I had no clue where to go, you know, in Rapid City. So I got on 2 meters and I said, where can we go for. For a good breakfast? And someone, and someone came back and.

Eric 4Z1UG
Told me that caught her attention, apparently so.

Dan N7HQ
Right. But she's rude. The day.

Eric 4Z1UG
Now, the stints in the band, was that part of the career that you were developing at that point?

Dan N7HQ
It was a passion, right. So it was, you know, I like music and I. But I liked the technical aspects of it probably more than the performing aspect. So I spent a lot of time, you know, making the equipment that were using more portable and more maintainable and building cables instead of buying them and putting the extra money towards, you know, good, you know, sound reproduction gear and being able to repair it and then, you know, for added money. When I was in Rapid City, I was, you know, would work, you know, some of the load in and load out crew for bands when they came to the civic center there.

Eric 4Z1UG
Like a roadie?

Dan N7HQ
Roadie, yeah, it was, you know, the local help. You know, I had a repair shop at the time. That was the business I was trying to get going. And it was just, it was, it was good business because these bands would come in and they would need someone to work on gear, you know, for the show. And I was on the crew, and so, you know, many times I got, you know, hey, can you fix, you know, our light drivers or, you know, hey, we have an amplifier. That's. How do you know? Can you fix it? You know, I had the parts. I could fix it. So. Made good money.

Eric 4Z1UG
It was kind of like how Bob Heil got his start. He had this audio repair company a little bit.

Dan N7HQ
Yeah.

Eric 4Z1UG
And it evolved into helping the groups coming into town and seeing a need, for example. That sounds like that was a lot of fun.

Dan N7HQ
It was. It was. It was a lot of fun.

Eric 4Z1UG
So what happened after that? Did you stay in Rapid City?

Dan N7HQ
No. So during that time, the PC was introduced. If you ever run a repair shop or been around them, one of the most. One of the more tedious and difficult things to do is maintain a good set of books and accounting for that, especially ordering parts. And Rapid City is serviced by Ellsworth Air Force Base. So when I, the air Force personnel would rotate back out after a tour in, like, Japan or wherever they were, they all needed their stereo gear converted from 50 cycles to 60 cycles, from 100 volts to 110 volts. And, you know, I had just a standing special and I had this constant flow of. Flow of gear, and so I had to keep track of all the parts.

Eric 4Z1UG
Before you go on, we should parenthetically say that in those days, servicemen like to buy the best stereo gear in Japan, right?

Dan N7HQ
That's correct, yeah. Well, because they got it for considerable discount. There was no penalty, import duty or anything like that because they were service members. But so they would come back with all this really nice gear and. And they would need someone that they could trust to service. So I had this built in cash flow and worked out very well. But then the PC came out and I thought, you know, computer would be a really great way for me to, you know, run the accounting and to generate invoices and manage all the parts inventory. And I said, I'll just buy one. So I went out and I bought a 286. No, it was an 8088. Right. This was. This was the original IBM PC, you know, dual floppy slogan. And quickly realized that software was like, there wasn't any software for.

Dan N7HQ
To manage all this. They had an accounting package, but the accounting package was nowhere near what you needed to run, you know, maintain inventory and pronounce. I was very disappointed that I hadn't thought through the whole thing before I went out and spent. It was expensive. It was, you know, about five grand is what I ended up, I think, what I for it. So I had this big investment sitting there, and I said, well, how hard can it be? So I said, I'll learn how to program. And so I spent the next year or so learning how to program. It started with basic and then graduated to c because Basic wasn't fast enough and found out I had a pretty good knack for doing that.

Dan N7HQ
After I got everything sort of working the way I wanted to, a local business came by and said, you know, they saw that. He said, where'd you get that software? I said, oh, I wrote it. They said, we would love that. And this was someone that sold rvs. We have the same problem, right? Oh, I went and installed that there and was like, oh, well, hey, there's, there's another little business opportunity here. So I started doing PC consulting in Rapid City and that, and at the time, the only place that you could get any information was the local bookstore. You go in and you would buy that. In fact, I still have some of the books here that Peter Norton's book inside the PC, all of those things.

Dan N7HQ
And with my electronics background, I had a figured out that I could, like, manipulate things at a fairly low level.

Eric 4Z1UG
And the books in those days also had the floppy disks in the back with some of the subroutines so you didn't have to enter them by hand.

Dan N7HQ
Well, in fact, it was written for the TRS 80, and I forget what year it came out.

Eric 4Z1UG
Well, the TRS 80 would be 1983 or 1984, maybe.

Dan N7HQ
Yeah, that sounds about right. But this had, like, sorting routines and. And just stuff that you know, I just didn't know anything about. It was all right here.

Eric 4Z1UG
I also had a repair shop in those days. I used AshtonTate dBbase3. So I wasn't really a programmer, but I learned how to write stuff around that for the same reason I was fixing beepers and I had drawers of parts and I had to create a. Create invoices and all that stuff. And you spend hours on the computer trying to just make your life easier. I probably still would have been better off just using the pad and the multiforms.

Dan N7HQ
Well, DB three, that is actually a comma delimited format.

Eric 4Z1UG
That's right.

Dan N7HQ
Right. So, yeah, I'm very familiar with that, and there's another story about that later. But anyway, I taught myself the program.

Eric 4Z1UG
But that's what people did in those days. There was machines, but there was no.

Dan N7HQ
Software, and there was no college courses about this you could go take computer science, but you basically ended up with a stack of punch cards and COBOL.

Eric 4Z1UG
Or RPG or Fortran.

Dan N7HQ
Yep, or Fortran. Rapid city. The school, the South Dakota School of Mines is there. And so I signed up for a. A computer science class there as I couldn't matriculate into the system there. But I thought, well, I'm interested in me as well, see what they. And I was amazed that I learned more from this book than an entire semester of, you know, compute, you know, like a computer science course that I was auditing. And I said, okay, well, that's not a good direction. So. But, you know, I would go to the bookstore, and I would wait for any new book that would come out, and I would just devour it. In one of those trips, there was someone from a town north of Rapid City, Sturgis, you may have heard about. That's where they have the big bike rally every year.

Dan N7HQ
And I still was still playing in bands at this time, but they came in and they said they had this novell network set up in their sale barn, and they were writing software for a sail barn, and they were having trouble doing something with Novell network. And I said, well, I'll take a look at it. And I knew, you know, I knew a little assembly language, and, you know, sure enough, I figured out how to do that. And I started, I said, I tell you what, I would like to be able to use your network in off days. And what I'll do is I'll write code for you if you let me use your network so I could learn network programming. And they said, okay. So I would.

Dan N7HQ
I would show up, you know, a couple times a week in the evenings, usually to do that. And then my wife, she said, you know, you like this so much, why don't you just sell the repair shop business, work on computers, okay? So I chose. I shut down the. This old interest I had in the repair shop and shut that business down and then started devoting myself full time to programming. And I still had this arrangement with this sale barn up in Sturgis, but I started showing up every day. And then one day I got sick, and I called him. I said, well, I'm not going to be in today.

Dan N7HQ
And when I got better, I went back that the owner of the business said, well, I tell you what, if you feel like you're calling in sick for your volunteer work here, I think we'll just put you on the payroll. So I was hired as a programmer for this company called Heritage Software. And over the next few years I ended up being a co owner of that business and expanded the software to include feedlot accounting software. And that ended. That was what there were more feedlots than there were sail barns and they also needed network. So network. So I ended up stopped playing music and ended up selling software in rural America to feed lots accounting software.

Eric 4Z1UG
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Eric 4Z1UG
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Eric 4Z1UG
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Eric 4Z1UG
Before we started the conversation, Dan and I were talking for about 45 minutes before we started. And we're talking about dirty jobs and things like this. What you're reminding me, Dan, is there are all these little vertical markets that are underserved. So you're making software for feed lots. I bet you could go across America and you could find these little vertical markets where somebody is doing something that you wouldn't even think, like you get egg delivery at your supermarket, but all of the little pieces along the way, for example, poultry shelter controls and software for all that stuff. It's quite amazing. And you're kind of bringing this up that here's a software company that specializes in this little tiny vertical. And I bet it was quite profitable.

Dan N7HQ
There were free owners and we made a living. You know, it was, and it wasn't a bad living, right? So we did, and you're right, it was. But it was always looking. We were talking about finding opportunity, right? And sometimes it just lands in your lap. So, and all during this time, ham radio operator. Right. You know, so there was, at the time there was this big shift to digital circuits. And you know, I had a teletype machine, the old western teletype machine that I did RTTY on and Hal, I don't know how, came out with their TNC that you could use for RTTY. And that was a lot of fun. And because there was computing involved in all of that, right? There was, there were microprocessors in these, in this ham equipment.

Dan N7HQ
And it was fun having the programming background and the electronics background and everything was kind of convert, starting to converge at that point. So anyway, about that same time, this company, a little company called Microsoft came out with this package called Windows 1.0. Boy, was that rough. Anyway, I became interested in writing software for that because that seemed like a pretty, had graphics and Windows one. It didn't even have separate windows. Everything was like tiled, everything. And then they came out with the next version. One point something, I think I have that box here somewhere that had overlapped Windows.

Dan N7HQ
And so I thought, well, this would be a really great tool to migrate from the basic programs, the more text based programs that were doing for the feedlot software into something more graphical because we could do nice reports and, you know, better user interface, better user experience.

Eric 4Z1UG
Online forums.

Dan N7HQ
Right? Yeah, forms that, what you see is what you get. WYSIWYG. Right. So I started rewriting this software and I, for Windows and I ended up having a lot of technical questions about it, mainly because I was an idiot, but mostly because the documentation wasn't complete, right. It was just like an API and that was it. So I started sending questions to Microsoft about like, how do you do this? How can I do this? This isn't working. How do I work around the problem? This was like 1989 by this time. And I think out of the hundreds of questions I sent, I maybe got answers to two of them, just a very few answers.

Dan N7HQ
So I figured solutions out by myself and I started responding to my own questions back to Microsoft, going, all right, well, since, you know, I figured out how to do this is how you do it. Maybe you can use it to help someone else, that sort of thing. And then my phone rings one day and it was this fellow named Nate Dixon who's no longer with us and he's from Microsoft. And he goes, you know, we saw that you were answering your own questions. We want to know if you would be willing to come interview for a job here at Microsoft. And as we got to know each other a little bit, it turns out he was a ham radio operator.

Dan N7HQ
So we struck up a pretty good friendship and he made sure that I got on the right interview track and sort of pushed me. And so I went to interview at Microsoft and was hired on the spot. They were, had not shipped windows three yet, but here was this. I was older than most of the people at Microsoft at that time by maybe five years. I felt kind of like an old guy that, you know, there already. But, you know, the questions that I got asked in that first set of interviews, I thought, there's no way I'm going to make it through this. Absolutely no way. But they hired me. And so on January 3, 1990, I started it, started work at Microsoft full time in Bellevue, Washington.

Eric 4Z1UG
So you had to move.

Dan N7HQ
It had to move. And so that launched a whole different career. But I had this sort of base friendship already established with an amateur radio operator there. And of course, you know, I mean, he introduced me to more amateur, you know, operators at Microsoft. And we would get together every Friday and have our geek lunch where we would have, you know, talk about all things radio. It was really a wonderful, you know, it was a wonderful time, right? And when I say that every good thing happened to me because of m radio, that's one of the shining points I got, you know, hired at Microsoft, I think I like to say, because the guy on the other end of the phone was a ham radio operator.

Eric 4Z1UG
Isn't that amazing?

Dan N7HQ
It is. It's a, it's a sorority fraternity. That we have here and that has, you know. Yep. So I spent ten years at Microsoft, you know, working on device drivers for Windows and helping other developers. And I transitioned to technical marketing and ended up, you know, producing several hundred hours of technical content, video content, or, you know, that helped other developers learn what I would, I learned. And, you know, it was really, it was really a great school, right, to go to because you had the part of the business I was in, especially the technical marketing part. We're dealing with some very smart people that. Going through the business analysis and explaining.

Eric 4Z1UG
ROI and finding out what customers needed.

Dan N7HQ
Listening to customers. One really interesting story is that, you know, it was the second day that I was in the technical marketing group. I shifted jobs to do technical marketing. The fellow by the name of Richard Tate, who unfortunately is not with us, ran that group. And I, and I showed up and he worked and he said, do you own a suit? You know? And I said, yeah, I don't know if it fits, but I know he said, okay. He handed me a cassette tape and he said, here is the corporate strategy on software development tools. Want you to go home and get your suit. You're going to the executive briefing center and you're going to be briefing bank of America. And I had never seen the presentation. Never.

Dan N7HQ
So I plugged in the cassette tape on the way home and was listening to Richard Tate deliver this presentation, got my suit, went back to the executive briefing center, and I'm sitting in this room and I come to realize that there's the CEO of Bank of America, Steve Ballmer, of Microsoft was hosting the meeting. And I thought, oh, my God, am I going to. I'm going to die here, right? So the presenter before me was the program manager for Microsoft Windows, and he was one of the, you know, rising stars at Microsoft, and he was presenting the Windows platform strategy to the bank of America. And he starts out of. And then all sudden, Steve Ballmer goes, no, that's not right. Show us your two best slides. And then leave. And I'm next up, right? And I'm going, oh, God.

Dan N7HQ
Steve Ballmer gets up and leads this conversation about windows, and he goes through the strategy. And then my time slot comes up. And, you know, in the executive briefing center, your name comes up on a, you know, on a screen. Dan Quigley presenting the windows tools strategy is what it did. And I thought, there's no way I can give this presentation. There's absolutely no way. So I got up and I, and I sat on the edge of the little table at the head of the room. And I said, well, you know, I've got a prepared presentation here for you. Before I start, what I'd really like to know is like, what problems do you have, you know, writing the windows? And that conversation just blossomed. I never showed a single slide in that entire presentation. And all he did was talk about their problems.

Dan N7HQ
And, you know, I was, you know, taking notes and answering what I could and asking Steve Ballmer, is there anything you'd like to add, steve, to the conversation? And I get out of it. And so my hour was up and I go back and I'm in my, in my office. And I thought, God, I dodged a bullet there. And then my manager comes up, walks and rushes into the room and he said, what did you do? And I go, oh, shit, I'm gonna get in trouble here. And I said, well, I just talked to the customer and he said, you got the highest ratings of any of the presentations there. And a special note from Steve Ballmer saying that he would like to have you back to do the same thing with this list of companies. Right?

Dan N7HQ
So that lesson was about listening to customers and giving that. So that didn't happen because of ham radio, but it was certainly something that stuck with me. After ten years at Microsoft, it was like 40 years. Any place else. I decided that I was going to go do a startup and work on home and building automation software because I saw a need and I had this house. And I thought, how am I going to convince my wife that I wanted to automate this house? How could I do it? And I said, well, I tell you what, I need to write software for it. So I started writing software and I realized it was a bigger problem than I could solve by myself. So I said, well, let's start a company. It seems like there's a need here.

Dan N7HQ
So I did that, started premise software for the next five years, worked on developing that and launching that product, and that was successful. We were one of the first, I think were the first to use TCP IP networking as the integration point for talking to all these different off the shelf devices and automating homes.

Eric 4Z1UG
Was your wife your partner in this business? It seems to me that the biggest roadblock to home automation in any home is the spouse who the first time she can't turn the light on in the kitchen or close the window. That that's the end of the story. I mean, if you want a successful marriage.

Dan N7HQ
So define partner, unwitting partner. So, yes, so lighting is of course, one of the things that if it doesn't work, you're just, you're doomed. You're, you're doomed. But, you know, my house was a lab. In fact, if you search for my name on the Internet, I think it's still there. There's, there's an article that was written by electronic house about me and my house called life in a lab. And I won't go into too many of the details there. Let people go look that up and read it. Booting a house up is like, you know, in itself is kind of an interesting exercise. And one story that I have is that were at some trade show. I did, like all this crazy automation.

Dan N7HQ
My, one of the objectives I had, I said, I want the house to be able to recognize that a guest has arrived and then alter its programming so for the way that it responds to things. I mean, I had it so you'd walk into a room and the light would go on and it would stay on as long as you, someone was active in the room. That's kind of common fair now, but back then that was something that was new. But I really wanted the house to be truly intelligent. That was a good objective. I don't think we quite got there, but one night we get this phone call from my wife and she goes, the sprinklers are on. I tried to turn on a light in the kitchen, but the sprinklers came on and now I can't get them to turn off.

Dan N7HQ
That was the kind of interaction that might, that my house had with my wife. And we eventually worked out all the bugs and Motorola picked up the, you know, picked up the business, acquired the business, and they were going to have these big plans to drop it, drop the car code into set top boxes. And they were going to sell set top boxes.

Eric 4Z1UG
Did the. Home automation controls.

Dan N7HQ
Home automation control hub. Some executive killed that whole project. So if you can imagine the end of raiders of the lost ark where the Ark of the Covenant's being put into some warehouse. That's what happened to my software, which is kind of sad.

Eric 4Z1UG
Well, do you have home automation now?

Dan N7HQ
I do.

Eric 4Z1UG
And what are you using, like home assistant or something like that?

Dan N7HQ
No, no. So there's more stories. More to the story. I'll get to it. Okay. So, so anyway, I worked at Motorola for five years and worked in the set top division for two of those years and then transitioned into the enterprise group. They were doing something interesting, which was being able to transition from a business phone system to a cell system and do that automatically so you could walk out of a building, then you were that you were using the ips, PBS, PBX, and then it would automatically transition to the cell network and back and forth. So they put me in charge of engineering for that project. And at one point I had like the 300 engineers that were in my organization, in fact, a team in Israel.

Dan N7HQ
And Motorola was a very interesting place to work because, you know, it was an engineering driven organization at the time. So no product got built unless, you know, the executive vice president of engineering gave it his blessing. And one story, I'll tell you that regarding Israel, that directly. So anyway, I get, I think it was 23 or 24 engineers in Israel, and they were RF specialists. They did antennas and that kind of thing. And a project came up that I thought that the team would be really well tooled to be able to manage. And there was this approval process that I had to go through even as a senior director, to get approval to assign resources. Right, because you were taking resources away typically from some other program. The executive VP of engineering told me, he said, no, you can't do that.

Dan N7HQ
I said, what is this team working on? He says, well, you don't need to know that. Anyway, I had this team in Israel that I was administrating. They were working on projects that I absolutely had no idea about.

Eric 4Z1UG
And I could only imagine parenthetically, Motorola is the oldest american corporation to be in Israel. Their relationship started in like 1961, something like that. And if you look on the back of a lot of the 800 MHz base stations, you'll actually see that they were actually manufactured in Israel. So the association with Motorola is. Goes back a long ways.

Dan N7HQ
Well, it was, yeah. And you know, these guys team, I mean, it was, you know, I figured, I think there were three female engineers and the rest were all male. But I mean, they were really smart people. And, you know, I got to know a couple of them because I had to make sure their reviews got done. And mostly the leads up there, but some very smart people.

Eric 4Z1UG
So their corporate headquarters was the home of the Israeli Amateur Radio society, which is kind of like the Arrl of Israel. So until they moved their corporate headquarters out of Tel Aviv, you made a right turn in the lobby and there was the amateur radio club.

Dan N7HQ
So I never made it to Tel Aviv. I really wanted to go. I saw every other engineering team. I traveled, you know, to Bangalore and other places where the other Motorola design center, but never made it to Tel Aviv. And I really wanted to do that as well. But. So in 2005, they were. Motorola was sort of collapsing, and I think they sold free scale off there. Had already done that, and they were starting now to. The enterprise group was acquired by a big New York firm. We had maybe a $200 million business line that I was a part of. And, this other company was like, 2 billion.

Eric 4Z1UG
This is like the phone PBX business.

Dan N7HQ
This was the. The commercial foot, you know, phone wireless business.

Eric 4Z1UG
Come to me like Nortel, actually. Nortel is Canadian.

Dan N7HQ
Right, right. No, no. This was. They made. They made devices that. Wireless devices that you would do inventory with. Anyway, there was this big merger, and my choice was either move to New York or stay in or move to Chicago. I couldn't keep my office in Redmond because they were. They were going to close that or leave. And so I decided. I decided to leave, but. And it was just right when the economy started to take up, 2008, the recession. The recession hit, and so I started getting reimbursed in my amateur radio. And so one of the things that. That caught my eye, washing, rebuilding, I wanted to. I had always wanted to have a Heathkit SB-104 line up as a kid, and of course, they were. You know, HeathKit was long gone at that point.

Dan N7HQ
So I started rebuilding a SB 104 line. And I have. If you go to my QRZ page.

Eric 4Z1UG
Right now, I'm looking over your right shoulder, and I see a whole bunch of Heathkit stuff over there.

Dan N7HQ
That's my collection. And I have to say, it's. It's a complete SV 104. And by complete, I have every piece of SB 104 line gear, and even one that Heathkit never shipped as a. As a final product. They had a antenna tuner that was set up for that. That's actually kind of the pride of my collection, that. So I have a. An SB 104 antenna tuner that. It was never a production model. It was put out, sent out as a trial kit, and then they ended up killing the. Killing that product. But I don't know how many they made, but not very many. And I. And I have one of them.

Eric 4Z1UG
I think I've interviewed someone that may have the other one. I'll have to go back and look through that. What are you sitting in? Are you sitting in your garage, or do you have your own building? Because I see, like, a small garage door.

Dan N7HQ
Right. This is a detached. This is a detached garage, so I can make all the noise I want, not bother my wife at all. So it's a single. It's a single car. Long, single car.

Eric 4Z1UG
It's loaded with tools and parts and chemicals. And I. I see a 3d printer, actually. Is that what I'm seeing on the right there?

Dan N7HQ
No.

Eric 4Z1UG
Or is that your coffee machine?

Dan N7HQ
So that's my ice machine.

Eric 4Z1UG
Your ice machine. Well, you are in Texas, right?

Dan N7HQ
It's crunchy ice. And then the thing that looks like antennas on my head there, that's a circa 1970 craftsman table saw that I'm rebuilding.

Eric 4Z1UG
Oh, wow.

Dan N7HQ
So the tax that I have to pay here for, you know, collecting tools and things are doing projects in the house.

Eric 4Z1UG
Happy wife, happy life.

Dan N7HQ
Well, my wife's an interior designer, so she has refined tastes. And if she wants built ins or something like that, they're a little more. They're a little more than we can afford. But the, but building them is that way I get to increase the square footage of tool space. Right.

Eric 4Z1UG
I see hints of flex radio in your background there. How did you end up at Flex radio and what do you do for them?

Dan N7HQ
Before I get there, you asked once about automation. Is my house automated? So it is around 20, you know, 1011. I started tinkering again with home automation, and Amazon was starting to come out with something called Alexa. And so they hired me to come in and work in the Alexa home automation team. So I worked there for about three years, putting, helping to get a Alexa connected to different devices. So that's what I use in my house for automation.

Eric 4Z1UG
And now this mid show break every two weeks, I listen to the Ham radio workbench podcast with George KJ6VU, Vince VE6LK, Mark N6MTS, Thomas K4SWL, Michael VA3MW, and Rod VA3NDZ and their guests on often topical and important projects in amateur radio. This discussion amongst the regulars and their guests remind me of the conversations that I used to listen to on 146.94 and 146.46 MHz in Orange County, California, while working on my own workbench almost 50 years ago. It is amazing how much practical ham radio knowledge that we can absorb by listening to the Workbench podcast. That starts to make sense when we start our own deep dive into our own projects. So join me by listening to the Ham radio Workbench podcast now.

Eric 4Z1UG
And as George and crew push beyond 200 episodes, you can get to the Ham radio Workbench podcast by clicking on the banner in this week's show notes page. And now back to our QSO.

Eric 4Z1UG
But you're a very security conscious guy.

Dan N7HQ
Mm.

Eric 4Z1UG
This is my alexa. It's been unplugged for three years because I'm afraid of it. Should I be afraid of having an Alexa in my house listening to my conversations?

Dan N7HQ
So I've got nine around the house. They even have them outside. So, no, I mean, the bottom line, there's two things. One is that it is always listening, but it's not sending data to the cloud until it hears the wake word. Then it sends a data to the cloud. Now, could it? Yes. Right. So without a doubt it could. If some nefarious product manager at Amazon decided that they wanted to listen in on every conversation as something that could happen. But number one, you'd notice it because there would be this constant stream. I mean, you can take a network sniffer and put it on your network and you're not going to see anything until, from those devices until the wake word. But the biggest reason is because of the earned trust that Amazon must have.

Eric 4Z1UG
To be successful with the product. And it's still an active product.

Dan N7HQ
Still an active product, but just more so that the brand, because if it turned out that Amazon was listening and everybody's conversations and using that for any purpose, it would be, it would kill the brand. And so the fundamental reason why that doesn't happen is, one, that it would be wrong to do it, and two, that it would be a, you know, it would be suicidal for Amazon to take that approach.

Eric 4Z1UG
The fact that we carry cell phones and we're pretty, I think that we're pretty liberal with the kind of apps that we pulled down and put on from the app store. My father passed away in May and like, all of a sudden I started getting like, advertisements for cremation societies. And I'm thinking, well, where is this coming from?

Eric 4Z1UG
How do they know?

Eric 4Z1UG
And it's very possible that, you know, my phone with whatever apps are on it are listening to conversations I'm having or keywords or something.

Dan N7HQ
And I would, I can't speculate on how, you know, how they determine that. There's probably behaviors that trigger, you know, something when you search.

Eric 4Z1UG
I wasn't even looking. But all of a sudden, you know, from conversations and emails I'm sending to my brother and all of a sudden.

Dan N7HQ
I'm getting this, someone picked it up somehow. But you're right that the cell that, you know, everybody carries around a microphone and a camera.

Eric 4Z1UG
That's right. Right.

Dan N7HQ
And so if you're security conscious about, you know, one of the echo devices, put the phone in the.

Eric 4Z1UG
Drawer, turn it off. Right.

Dan N7HQ
This is probably more of a security risk than anything. It's essential to life. But. But that was fun.

Eric 4Z1UG
So you're using the Alexa's for the input. What are you actually controlling with Alexa does that?

Dan N7HQ
Right. So it. It's an integration, it's talking to the.

Eric 4Z1UG
Devices, like the switches.

Dan N7HQ
Yep, yep. So, you know, I can, you know, I can go, computer, turn on the. Computer, turn on the main light. So that integration occurred in the cloud. The Alexa back end talk to, in my case, it's a Leviton, you know, device that is controlling the lights. Computer, turn off the main light. So, so it does all of the communications with the devices and the manufacturers actually do the work to do that. Computer, turn off the main there when it was listening. Right. Computer stops. That's the end of that.

Eric 4Z1UG
I used to be in the low voltage installation business here in Israel, and everybody that has any money is buying home automation controls. But the only thing that's always lacking is the programming. There's no programming, so people have a lot of remote control switches. I always thought the whole purpose of automation is rather than break your hip as you get out of bed in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, that as soon as you put your foot on the floor, the light goes on or it comes up at 25% so that at least you don't trip over the dog or something like that. And nobody does that.

Dan N7HQ
Well, no, that you can do that today easily on, you know, the Alexa or the Echo platform. Alexa platform, right. There's things that they call routines, and you can take the input of motion sensor, for example, and then do something with it, you know, do some work with that. So it requires probably more than the average consumer would be willing to commit to learning how to do that. But it's very possible, and I use them a lot here. One thing I've learned over the years with automation is that I've done a lot of crazy things. The least amount of friction or cognitive dissonance that you. That you give a user, the more successful it's going to be. And that all boils down to simplicity.

Dan N7HQ
So, you know, we have a routine called goodnight that my wife uses, and it shuts off all the lights and turns off the fan, sets back thermostat, and it's not on a timer or anything like that. She just says it and, you know, and the house responds and goodbye, or I'm home.

Eric 4Z1UG
If you lose your Internet connection, though, do you have any controls with no Internet connection?

Dan N7HQ
So that's the other big lesson learned, is that if it's only cloud controlled or only controlled through the voice interface or whatever interface you're using. That's. And the network is required other than the one that the devices use themselves, it's not a good thing. So local control is very important. So, you know, all the light switches in this house anyway are still light switches in a wall. Right. That, you know, worst case you can just get up off your butt and I walk over to the light switch and turn it on or off. Right. So that's a big lesson is that for essential things like lighting or heating and air conditioning, you have to have local control. You can't be reliant on Internet or any other network for that matter, other than the device network.

Eric 4Z1UG
You're now in Texas.

Dan N7HQ
I'm now in Texas, yep.

Eric 4Z1UG
And how did you make that transition to Texas? What was the draw to Texas?

Dan N7HQ
Well, so there was, when I was still at Amazon, I was really interested in this product called the FlexRadio Power Genius or PGXL that I'd seen. Crazy thing about this industry is at least you know, about the products that are coming. Well before that they're shipped. Not like the Apple I, you know, iPhone or even. There was there, you know, there was no embargo against talking about new products. Some companies are a little more strict than others, but PGXL was one that was on, you know, like I saw pictures of it and saw people talking about it and I thought, what a great next amp for me for my hobby. And I was in Amsterdam at the time working for Amazon and I was considering leaving there and doing something different at that time. And the company that manufactured PGXL was based in Montenegro.

Dan N7HQ
I said, well, I'm not going to be any closer than that anytime. So I decided to go over and see the folks at 403 a skysat while I was in Amsterdam and kind of struck up a relationship with Renko and his son Dragosha there and agreed that I would be their rep in the US after I left Amazon. But when I started getting the product and looking at the PGXL was the one product that really needed to get out the door and they needed some programming help with it. I happened to have some skills in that area and started working on the firmware for the PGXL. And about that time I got very ill. I was, I had peritonitis. That was a pretty serious condition.

Dan N7HQ
And when I was in the hospital, FlexRadio offered me a job to come in and work and join the flex team based on some of the work that I'd done on the PGXL. And my interactions with them, which, you know, after you go through an illness like that, you sort of take stock of your life and make decisions about what you want to do. And that seemed like a really good choice and have the opportunity to join a small product company in ham radio to do that. So that's how I got hired and got here in 2019. So after I got out of the hospital and we packed up and then moved to Texas, and that's pretty much how I got here.

Dan N7HQ
But then flex radio started winning the attention of military and commercial products, and they got the, were awarded the contract to be the design authority for a replacement for one of the radios inside larger Air Force aircraft. And ever since then, the company has really grown. And it seems like, you know, I landed in a spot where, you know, the products are accelerating, the company's growing, and so it's kind of like it's.

Eric 4Z1UG
Gone in a direction that they never.

Dan N7HQ
Thought it would go, and neither did I. I thought that I would be, you know, joining a company that, you know, had a good market and, you know, I had a good reputation and I didn't see a whole lot of growth in there in dealing with that. But now it's sort of like going to work for Microsoft or the Alexa team. So I find myself in the same kind of situation where there's lots of opportunity, lots of places where people can contribute. It's really a good place to work.

Eric 4Z1UG
Now, are you off today or do you work from home?

Dan N7HQ
No, I am actually playing hooky right now with you. Right.

Eric 4Z1UG
So, so I appreciate it very much.

Dan N7HQ
Well, no, I, we tried to do this for several months now, and it was like, really need to get to do that. But what I do here now is my official title is director of strategic Solutions, which is basically talking with customers and getting customers to acclimate them to our product and our API. And so it's real familiar territory for me. And it's really great because the kind of job I like are my best ideas ever in any product or anything have come with discussions from customers, every single one. You know, being able to take what customers say, knowing where a product is or a product line or roadmap is going, and being able to synthesize some direction or feature or something that would help both customer and product is just right dead center and target where I like to be.

Dan N7HQ
There's lots of opportunity here for that, and I've been thoroughly enjoying myself.

Eric 4Z1UG
I've listened to you a few times on the Hamready Workbench podcast, and I think the last time you were on there, you kind of ignited this idea in my brain. Like, could you put a flex radio inside a SB 104, for example? I mean, or I have a TS 520. Could you make a board that makes an electronic interface, serial interface, Ethernet interface from the front panel? So you get rid of all the electronics behind the front panel and put in a 6700, or, in fact, it doesn't even have to be in the box. It could be in your remote base station someplace.

Dan N7HQ
Well, funny you should say that. Right? I did that. Right? I did that with, you know, when I did the SB 104 rebuilding, I ended up with a lot of extra parts. I think I've told the story on the ham radio workbench, and I had these extra, you know, front panels and all the controls and the shells of the. Of all the gear, and I decided I was going to put an SDR radio inside of one of them, and that's what I did. So, again, looked at my QRZ page. You'll see two copies of an SB 104. One of them is stock refurbished, and then the other one is basically has a. It was an HPSDR from the tapper radio set of boards in it. And I really like that idea. I mean, it's. It would.

Dan N7HQ
I don't know if there was a business around that, but you could certainly see for people like me that really miss the user interface or the user experience of some of the older gear, maybe their favorite radio. Mine was the SP 104, but could.

Eric 4Z1UG
Be anything really like the Kenwood TS-520. It was the mechanicals. It's a tactile feel under your fingers.

Dan N7HQ
Right. Well, that whole experience, being able to tune. Tune through a dial, and it may not be digital. Right. So, no, I really like that idea, and I think that it'll be interesting to hear from your. You know, from the people that listen to this podcast if they're interested.

Eric 4Z1UG
I have a Yeasu FT-101 under my bench that hasn't worked for years, and it's kind of like, you know, maybe I should just pull that front panel off, and whether it's Arduino or Raspberry PI a to d converters, all this other stuff, it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard.

Dan N7HQ
It isn't. It wouldn't. No.

Eric 4Z1UG
To create an interface.

Dan N7HQ
Right. It would be. It would be an interface, and it wouldn't even need to be the same. You know, the front panel would be the same size, but the depth of the radio wouldn't be. You could have this thin facsimile of your user interface, although I don't know if it would give you the same, you know, look, if you, like, built.

Eric 4Z1UG
In a built in console or something like that, or it's kind of like, you can buy this deck ten interface with the Raspberry PI in the back.

Dan N7HQ
Right.

Eric 4Z1UG
Why not do that with radios?

Dan N7HQ
Well, with my background in automation and, you know, working, you know, working with hardware, it really is, would be a fairly simple thing to do. And with something like a flux radio that has such an extensive API behind it, you could really make it. I think probably some of your viewers, or viewers, some of your listeners are familiar with the maestro product we have, which is effectively the same thing. It's just, a. It's a fancy. You could do the same thing with your favorite, It'd be interesting to do it to a gold instead of gold dust twins, right? If you could. If you could build something that looked exact, you know, looked like that, there would be this.

Dan N7HQ
This radio that would weigh substantially less than, you know, than the model that it had, but you could get the same look, but then have that. That wonderful new SDR tech behind it. Not that the column stuff was bad at all, but you would have sort of state of the art innards and the retro feel of a user interface, which I think is an interesting dichotomy.

Eric 4Z1UG
Before we go, you're all over the Internet. We touched on some stories that people haven't heard, but is there something that you'd like to say to the QSO today audience about where you're at in ham radio or where you think ham radio is that will let them think a little bit beyond the interview? I always come away after listening to you on ham radio workbench and also on the ham radio workbench in general. I'm always thinking, oh, that's an idea. That's a project. What do you think?

Dan N7HQ
I think, you know, if anything, that I've picked up my life's work, which is kind of all over the map, has been, you know, stay curious, you know? You know, buying the latest radio is, you know, is. Is kind of the easy way out, I think, you know, I I don't look down on it at all. I'm. Heck, I'm plenty of new radios, but this particular hobby has so much more to offer to you, and you can go as deep or as shallow as you really want to. There's no pressure.

Eric 4Z1UG
You could make a QRP labs transceiver for under $100 and be on the air in your local park, and then.

Dan N7HQ
The other thing would be pass it on. We talked a little bit about vocational education before we. We started the interview and how that has kind of waned over the years where people don't have that hands on experience that they can get. I really think that this generation of amateur operators has. Really has a mandate, an obligation. An obligation to pass it on and find the one student and, you know, that likes to go in the basement of the physics and chemistry lab and play with the electronics and learn. But we really need to start interesting, get kids while they're young, interested, and expose them to it. You don't need to force them into it. Just an ex. Just exposure.

Dan N7HQ
I mean, I go back to when I was three years old and had that, you know, experience walking into the basement of my soon to be home and seeing all the lights and clerk clicks and buzzes and whirs that were going along in there, and that ignited something in me that has scared me to this day. And I think that kind of experience can be replicated. And like you said, I think there's an obligation that we have as a community to be able to pass that on.

Eric 4Z1UG
You have your apprentice. You mentioned it before we started recording. Tell me about your apprentice and how you've set the stage for him.

Dan N7HQ
So Asher is my grandson.

Eric 4Z1UG
I also have an Asher.

Dan N7HQ
You do?

Eric 4Z1UG
As a grandson? Yeah, he is.

Dan N7HQ
But my daughter. My daughter told me when he started showing an interest in the technical things, she called me one night and she said, dad, we found you one. So Asher comes and spends a couple hours a weekend with me, usually during the school year. And we have a variety of different projects. And my goal with him, really, to act as not necessarily an elmer, but just someone that will show him, expose him to a variety of different technical topics. Like this week's project, we're building a model rocket. So it's not all radio. I mean, he's put together a power supply.

Eric 4Z1UG
He has his own workbench, right?

Dan N7HQ
He's got his own workbench right back there. That's Asher's bench. And, you know, he can set up tools and, you know, and, you know, my job is just to put things in front of him and give him things to do with his hands in his mind that are not necessarily things that you learn out of a book. So we have shock rules. I think that discipline, you know, put things away after you're done with them, take care of your tools. I mean, those kinds of lessons that I learned from my grandfather and father, that I don't think a lot of. I don't think everybody gets that opportunity to do that. So I think that's. That's an obligation, right? It's not just my grandson that's really thinking about, you know, how you pass on what you've learned.

Eric 4Z1UG
I still have the lineman's pliers that I received when I was seven years old from my grandparents. I still have them. It's still in my toolbox and I still use them. And it's kind of like. It's a philosophy, it's a way of life. I'm so amazed. Osher's so lucky that he has a mentor like you, Dan. I'm envious. I, too, like having my apprentices at various times.

Dan N7HQ
He gets to see, experience other things that I'm rebuilding some old woodworking tools in the background rather than going out and buying something new. I'm refurbishing a table saw or a jointer or something like that I can use for other things. But I think, you know, it's kind of like a rescue puppy in some cases. You go. You, you go find these things that are just wasting away someplace that with just a little bit of TLC and.

Eric 4Z1UG
Some effort, it doesn't have to be a ham radio project. With my student, we rebuilt this Roland D 70 that's behind me. It's a keyboard synthesizer.

Dan N7HQ
I owned one that when I said I played keyboards, it was a D 70.

Eric 4Z1UG
It was the Roland D 70. I bought this and the keys didn't work. So me and my ten year old now protege took it apart. And I'd never taken one apart before. And I think I've even maybe told the story. But we've taken it apart. We've completely cleaned all the contacts. We're starting to put it back together. And he's now putting the keys on. He's ten years old and he's putting the keys on. I turned him, I said, "why do you think that people don't fix their own keyboards?" And he thinks, and he says, "because they think they can't."

Dan N7HQ
Yeah.

Eric 4Z1UG
I said, "well, what do you think?" He says, "well, I think I can". And I said, "well, what do you do if you get stuck?" He says, "you know, I would ask for help". And I'm thinking, YES!!, if I've taught him anything, it doesn't matter whether now.

Eric 4Z1UG
We have done four keyboards since then.

Eric 4Z1UG
I. Because we find him in the garbage, people throw things out. And so he now has one of the four. We've sold one. I guess what I'm saying is usually the roadblock for kids being able to do something extraordinary is this idea that they can't do it and that they possibly could fail rather than trying it and seeing that they're not going to fail and that if they feel like they're about to fail they can just ask for help.

Dan N7HQ
Especially today. I mean, you go to YouTube, you can find anything. I mean you got to weed through some of the garbage that's there. But the. But I mean, if you wanted to learn how to resole a shoe, I would guarantee you that there's going to be a YouTube video on that out there. And you name it and you have, I mean, talk about a. I mean, I wish I would have had this resource when I was.

Eric 4Z1UG
The first thing I did when I took that apart was one of the things with these synthesizers is you don't remove the clock battery.

Dan N7HQ
Oh really?

Eric 4Z1UG
Right. Because its entire programming disappears. So then I learn about that. You go on YouTube and you say, oh my God, I've lost all of. It's a keyboard but it no longer plays music.

Dan N7HQ
Right.

Eric 4Z1UG
Then you find out about midi and MIDi cables and stuff like this. So I borrowed a midI cable from another musician and I discovered that I could actually download from Roland the operating system for the. This keyboard's 30 years old, I think.

Dan N7HQ
Yeah, at least that.

Eric 4Z1UG
And I was able to reload it and it was all because you can go on the Internet. What did we do before? Well, maybe we threw it out or maybe we send it to a specialist.

Dan N7HQ
Or we called the company.

Eric 4Z1UG
Or we called the company. Yeah. And got on the phone.

Dan N7HQ
Got on the phone. So yeah, no, pass it on. Yeah, it's great. That's a perfect example.

Eric 4Z1UG
It's an attitude, I think what keeps people from Israel, the trash cans are a goldmine because nobody fixes anything. Much to my wife's chagrin. There's a whole attic full of stuff that she can't see. But she knows this. There of things I find in the trash that I know for some project they'll be usable. But I think that the majority of time, at least in this time, is people think they just can't do things and they don't even try. With our apprentices, Dan, we can convince them and maybe they'll infect other people and say, well if he can do it, I can do it. Maybe we can create this virus of can do ism.

Dan N7HQ
I'm in. We oughta, we ought to make that a cuso today. People like to put the things that they've done up on a bulletin board someplace. It would be, you know, it would be interesting to be able to have, you know, like, there's lots of vertically oriented chat rooms where people will put up pictures of a lathe that they've refurbished or something like that. We could, you know, we could do the same thing for radios, right?

Eric 4Z1UG
And the wooden bowl they spun on it after they got it all done, right?

Dan N7HQ
Or the pen or whatever. Yeah.

Eric 4Z1UG
Dan, this has been such a great time for me. I'm so happy. It took a few months for us to kind of get it all together, but I'm so happy that we did, and it was such a pleasure talking to you. I hope that we can do it again sometime.

Dan N7HQ
Well, you know, anytime. I'm as you can probably tell, I don't have. I don't get tongue tied very often. So I just hope that people find this interesting and that you don't have to do too much editing.

Eric 4Z1UG
I don't think Ben will have to do too much editing at all. Thank you so much.

Dan N7HQ
Thank you, Eric. And, you know, and, you know, we. We are definitely thinking about you here. I think about you every day.

Eric 4Z1UG
Well, thank you. I appreciate all of the thoughts and prayers that people send because we need it right now.

Dan N7HQ
We all do. We're on the same ship, right. Whether we like it or not, you know, we're on this. We're on the same spacecraft.

Eric 4Z1UG
So that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And that's not to underplay at all of the other issues that seem to be confronting us now. So together, we'll win them over and we'll make our disciples one at a time.

Dan N7HQ
That's all it takes.

Eric 4Z1UG
Thank you so much, Dan.

Dan N7HQ
You bet, Eric. You have a wonderful day.

Eric 4Z1UG
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Eric 4Z1UG
Content promote us on social media and give us a five star rating and reviews whenever you are asked. QSO today is available on every podcast, player and venue, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and podcasting 2.0. Get a podcasting 2.0 player to make it easy to get your next episode as soon as we publish. My thanks to Ben Bresky, who as the consummate artist, makes this host and his guests always sound brilliant. Ben also publishes a weekly jewish history podcast. There is a link to that on the QSO Today home page.

Eric 4Z1UG
Until next time, 73.

01:59
Eric 4Z1UG
I appreciate all of the kind messages and guest suggestions that were sent and received, and while I have tried not to repeat episode guests, it seems like this strategy neglects the amazing and interesting things that my former guests do after the interview. So I will bring back some of the previous guests to find out what they are doing now.


My guest this week is Willi Kraml, OE1WKL, creator of the Morserino CW code practice machine. Willi discovered amateur radio as a boy in Linz, Austria, but had to wait until the legal age of 16 to get his license. With his doctorate in linguistics, Willi pursued a career in IT security with KPMG, and when his local makerspace needed an Arduino project around amateur radio, the more sereno code practice machine was born.

02:56
Eric 4Z1UG
OE1WKL discusses the delivery of over 10,000 Morserino kits, his projects, and contributions to amateur radio in this QSO today. OE1WKL this is Eric 4Z1UG are you there Willi?

03:14
Willi OE1WKL
Yes, I'm here. Have a good day. Eric 4Z1UG from OE1WKL

03:21
Eric 4Z1UG
Thanks for joining me on the QSO Today podcast. Willi, can we start at the beginning of your ham radio story? Where and when did it start for you?

03:31
Willi OE1WKL
It started at a very early age. In reality, I was probably around maybe eleven or twelve years old when I became interested in radios as a broadcast receiver. My parents had two sets of one, a very old one in the kitchen. It was a german Volksenfenger, and the other one a bit more modern still. I mean, we are talking about 1960, 1964, something like that. Still tube based, of course, not solid state. I was very interested in listening to radio, but the thing that sort of got on my nerves, I was not allowed touch these radio sets, so I couldn't tune to another station or anything.

04:20
Eric 4Z1UG
Why do you think that was? Was it because your parents had preferred radio stations that they wanted to listen to?

04:26
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, probably yes. And they were probably afraid that make so many changes to their settings that it takes them a while to get back to normal.

04:36
Eric 4Z1UG
You grew up in Linz, Austria, right?

04:40
Willi OE1WKL
Near Linz in Upper Austria.

04:42
Eric 4Z1UG
Yes, it's the only place in Austria I've ever been. Linz was shortwave listening on these radios, something that Europeans did more than, say AM broadcasts?

04:56
Willi OE1WKL
No, no, it was strictly AM local stations that they were listening to. But especially with the old set in the kitchen that the Volksimfenger, it was not very narrow banded. So in the evening you sometimes heard of other stations coming through? Yeah, DX stations on am coming through. And that interested me a lot. And I wanted to tune to them, but my parents didn't allow that. But they realized that I'm very interested in this kind of technology. And at Christmas they gave me an electronics kit as a present. And it was a cosmos radioman, which was a really very instructive a set of electronic parts that had all sorts of things in it. You even had to build your own electrolytic capacitor. There was a sort of a kit for a variable capacitor.

05:53
Willi OE1WKL
There were a few resistors and a coil that was mount on. It looked like a toilet paper roll, that paper roll with wire around it. And it had a very good instruction manual and it was explaining all the parts and how they work in very simple terms so that a ten or twelve year old boy could really understand them. And so I could build first detector receiver. It was the first project, more or less, with headphones. And now for the first time, I could tune the different stations. So that was exciting. And then the next stage was solid state. With a transistor, you could amplify the detector output or you could even build a regenerative receiver. And all of a sudden on AM, I could hear really distant stations at night. So that was exciting.

06:45
Willi OE1WKL
And there was even an add on where you could build sort of a little amplifier with a tube, a battery powered tube. So you had, I don't know, 13, 14 volts as an old voltage and 4.5 volts for the heater. And it was all very exciting technology and that's how I really got into it. And so I also acquired books on flea markets, etcetera, about building radios and how they work and how electronics work. And I started experimenting with these, the parts I had in the kit. I got a second kit, I think a year later, it was from Philips, was not so much radio based as the first one, but more electronics based. So you could build multivibrators and things that blink or beep or whatever.

07:38
Willi OE1WKL
And I started experimenting and built also the first oscillators on the AM radio band, of course, because that's the coil and the capacitor ahead. So I built an oscillator and when I tuned to it, I could hear it in the kitchen radio, very much to the enoyment of my parents.

08:04
Eric 4Z1UG
So you could take over everything they're listening to?

08:07
Willi OE1WKL
That's right, yeah. That was very fascinating.

08:11
Eric 4Z1UG
Did you have peers who shared this interest with you?

08:14
Willi OE1WKL
Not at this stage yet, but I, my father had a friend and his friend was a policeman. And the policeman, of course, knew about the legal regulations and said, yeah, well, it's not strictly legal to build an oscillator and start transmitting in your neighborhood, but there is something like ham radio. And he had a friend and I said, I will introduce you to him. He will teach you everything that you need to know and you could become ham radio operator. And so he introduced me to his friend, which was Norbert OE5UN. And he had a real huge shack, really, in his basement and a huge antenna outside. For me it was huge. It was just, I don't know, 30 meters of wire, but for me it was enormous. And so this was the first ham I really met in my life.

09:12
Willi OE1WKL
And he explained to me and he showed me some, the equipment he had in his check and explained certain things to me. The only thing that I didn't like because I was very keen and said, well, I want to take this license immediately. So he said, well, that's not really possible because at that time you had to be 16 years of age. And I was just 14 by then. Yeah, 14 and a half, maybe. You have to wait until you are 16. And then he said, well, even then it's too early. First you have to start being an SWL. You have to do a lot of listening. You have to learn cold, you have to learn this and that before it makes sense to go for your exam. So that was a bit of a downer, so to say.

10:00
Willi OE1WKL
But he gave me a VHF receiver and a two meter antenna. And this we at jeffreys they make was Nogoton. I never heard about this. Later it was tube based and am only, two meter, am only. But it allowed me to listen to all the local hams, two meter. Everything was am back then, pretty much everything. So I could listen to them. And before you know it, I knew all those by call sign and name. I have never seen any one of those men, but I knew all them by call sign and name from this friend of my father, who was the policeman. He gave me all the legal regulations, all copies of all the laws and regulations. So I was sort of learning them by heart. And then I decided, well, I don't really.

10:52
Willi OE1WKL
As soon as I'm 16, I will go for the exam. And that's what I did when I was 16. I booked an exam and I went there completely self taught. Really?

11:05
Eric 4Z1UG
Did you do that in Linz or did you actually have to go to some capital city?

11:09
Willi OE1WKL
No, in Lintz. They had an office in Linz. So I went there. I had to get permit from the school because it was on a school day in the morning, so I had to get an exemption. The teacher was not very amused. I said, that's all nonsense. What are you doing there? So I went there, did the exam and passed. I passed because there was just maybe a year before they introduced a no code option where you could take the exam without Morse code. And this would limit you to VHF. And above that was the downside of it. No shortwave. But as I was really listening to VHF, I had plans to start with VHF anyway. And so when I was six, I had a license.

11:56
Willi OE1WKL
I went back to this first Elmer, to Norbert, and said, hey, listen, see, I have got my license. I didn't wait any longer.

12:04
Eric 4Z1UG
Were there different levels of exams in Austria at that time?

12:09
Willi OE1WKL
Only two classes, so to say, one with Morse code and one without. But all the other areas, technology, et cetera, operating techniques, legal requirements was all the same for both gases.

12:22
Eric 4Z1UG
So your first license allowed you to have full operation on all the pans?

12:27
Willi OE1WKL
Yes, yes, just on VHF and above.

12:31
Eric 4Z1UG
Oh, VHF and above. I see.

12:33
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, VHF and above, because I didn't do the Morse test. And then I quickly after that, I got introduced to a local radio club in Linz, radio club 68. It was called like that because it was formed in. In the year 1968. And I became a member of them. And I got my real elmers there for the first time. Peter, OE5MPL, and Ossie, OE5BOL. Ossie became my CW teacher then, so he trained me one to one for about a year, and then I did my CW test and got the full license a year later. And Peter, he introduced me to VHF contesting, two meter contesting. He had a nice little contest station up on a hill above Lintz.

13:33
Willi OE1WKL
And so with the gap call, so to say, we took part in essentially all VHF contests that were on, and were quite successful, really. So that was interesting. So, yeah, this is how my career started.

13:52
Eric 4Z1UG
Can we talk a little bit about your schooling? Schooling in Lintz. Now, it's my understanding from actually interviewing other ham radio operators from Europe that your school kind of went off in different tracks, like a college track or a technical track in high school. Did that happen there in Austria? And which track did you take?

14:13
Willi OE1WKL
Of course, there were several different types of school or types of high school, and I went to what we called a humanistic track, or the humanistic high school, which. So you basically started your language training with Latin at the age of ten. Two years later, you started with old Greek, and only at the age of 15, I started with English. So that was a bit of a downside. I learned English very late in my life, I must say.

14:44
Eric 4Z1UG
You actually had exposure to the classics then, in Latin and Greek.

14:48
Willi OE1WKL
That's right, yeah. And not much to technology. I mean, I was always interested in technology when I went to school, but we didn't hear much about it at school that. So that was really all self taught. I was reading magazines about it and things like that. Yeah.

15:06
Eric 4Z1UG
How did ham radio then influence the direction that you went after high school? Did it influence your college or any further education?

15:17
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, at first it seemed like it, because at first I thought, well, maybe let's go to technical university and maybe become a radio engineer or something like that. But then I realized when I started at the Technical University of Vienna, I realized that the type of high school I went to was not really the best preparation because nobody expected me to know anything about the classics, but they expected a lot more in mathematics and geometry and things like that, especially geometry was an interesting case. I had to do sort of the high school finishing exam. I had to do that at the university because I didn't have it at high school. And so I went to an extra class to learn all that. And that was easy. I passed with flying colors, that. So I understood all the principles of geometry.

16:18
Willi OE1WKL
But then at the technical university, you had to have your projects and you had to draw them by hand with ink, etcetera. And I hated it because it took me so much time. And whenever it was almost finished, there was a blob of ink on the paper or whatever. And whenever I had finished it, more or less, and I went to the guy examining it, he said, oh, that's not good enough. It's correct from the way how you draw it, but in the style of drawing and the neatness is not good enough. And so we ripped it up and I had to do it again. So I decided, well, that's probably not the life I want to live. And I changed. I went to the University of Vienna and started to study germanic languages and linguistics.

17:11
Willi OE1WKL
Total change, but which was more fitting to what I knew from high school, of course.

17:17
Eric 4Z1UG
You have a PhD, is that correct?

17:19
Willi OE1WKL
That's right. And it's in linguistics, comparative linguistics.

17:22
Eric 4Z1UG
So what did you do after that? What did you do for making your living first?

17:26
Willi OE1WKL
And this started while I was still working on my PhD thesis. I got a job at the Austrian Academy of Sciences. They had a project, a linguistic lexicon project, really, collecting old germanic names that are in roman inscriptions and whatever, with romande or latin authors, history books from ancient times. They were collecting all these names into a lexicon. And they hired me as a helper in this project with a requirement to learn programming. As I was interested in things like that already. I said, well, that cannot be a problem. I will learn programming. And I did again, more or less self taught. I started with COBOL on the mainframe. So I did all the it, the database stuff for this project. And I had this job for, I think, about five years until the project was finished and the book was published, et cetera.

18:30
Willi OE1WKL
And after that, the question was, yeah, what do you do now? Yeah, it's in linguistics that the area specialized in was celtic languages, early Irish, early Welsh, and things like that. So not easy to make a living with this knowledge, unless you are lucky and find a job at a university. But there are not that many jobs, especially in these fields. So I decided, well, during my project, I learned a lot about computers and computing, and even I started to build my own home computer from scratch, really more or less soldering all the components on a PCP. So I said, well, I know pretty much about that, and this is an area that is really going strongly. So I went into it more or less.

19:20
Eric 4Z1UG
You actually ended up working for quite a time for one of like the big five international firms, right?

19:27
Willi OE1WKL
That's correct, yeah.

19:29
Eric 4Z1UG
What company was that?

19:30
Willi OE1WKL
That was KPMG. KPMG International. First, I worked for KPMG in Austria for the. The austrian firm was head of id. There was one of the austrian Internet pioneers in the commercial field. I think our company was among the first five companies having a permanent connection to the Internet in Austria. And because of that connecting to Internet, I got very much interested information security, network security, things like that. So I specialized on that. And then with KPMG International, I was for many years the global information security officer.

20:15
Eric 4Z1UG
And I think when you're referring to an early connection to the Internet, there was a connection that connected universities around the world.

20:22
Willi OE1WKL
Yes. And this is how I became exposed. Even during my project at the university, I was a heavy user of the computing facilities of the university. And so I realized, oh, then the first thing they had was global email. Yes. Still based on UCP back then, yeah. And then later on they changed it to SMTP and more modern protocols. So I was very interested in all this technology. I said, well, this is so useful for the academic field. All of a sudden people can exchange ideas and there are FTP servers where you can have repositories of your information and things like that. So that must be interesting for the commercial area as well.

21:07
Eric 4Z1UG
What was the name of that network, do you recall? Wasn't Usenet?

21:11
Willi OE1WKL
Usenet was one part of it. Usenet was sort of the knowledge and repository plus use groups.

21:22
Eric 4Z1UG
I remember when I was in college, but it was one of these things that there was a priesthood at every university that actually had access to this network. So it was talked about in very quiet language that it was there. But it wasn't probably until the mid nineties when actually the Internet started to kind of turn into the world Wide Web. How did ham radio play a part in all of this during these years? Were you active in those days?

21:50
Willi OE1WKL
Not very active, because I was already married by then. I married when I still was at university working for my PhD. I had children, so I had a family, I had a job and had to learn a lot ongoing for my job. So I was not very active in the beginning years when I was still at university, I was active with my club in Upper Austria. I still continue to do some contesting and things like that, and I also used their shortwave station when I was up there and did some dxing on shortwave. But with the family and then the job, it was more and more complicated. I always had some radio set. I never became silent, completely silent, but it was really on a sideburner, I must say. Just didn't have the time.

22:45
Eric 4Z1UG
I've been there and done that. I had a Motorola MSS. I loved doing radios all day long, but coming home and playing on amateur radio was not one of the things. I was a popular choice with a family, so I get all that. So what's the status now? Are you retired?

23:03
Willi OE1WKL
Yes, I retired about ten years ago from my job. Then I said, well, I have so many interests besides Ham radio. Yeah, I'm keen.

23:14
Eric 4Z1UG
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24:09
Eric 4Z1UG
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Eric 4Z1UG
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25:49
Eric 4Z1UG
What are those other interests besides amateur.

25:51
Willi OE1WKL
Radio, photography, painting, singing, music in general. And so I knew that I wouldn't be bored when I retire. I had many projects that were sort of on the waiting list to be done. The other thing is also genealogy, to explore the roots of my parents a bit more. And that's a very time consuming hobby.

26:17
Eric 4Z1UG
If you start that, I have a sense of it. Your linguistics background and obviously your it background, does that play into any of these things, like photography?

26:28
Willi OE1WKL
Yes, sure.

26:30
Eric 4Z1UG
You're a renaissance man. For all intent purposes, would you say.

26:34
Willi OE1WKL
No, no, it certainly played a role, yeah. Because many things are, they become different when you have a technological background, so to say, and you can use tools that maybe other people struggle using it because they don't have the background. So it always played a role. And then when I retired, I said, I also want to become more active as a ham. And I did two things that really made a big difference. The one was I went to our national society, the Ostracia, for such centre verbandh.

27:11
Eric 4Z1UG
Is that the same as the Austrian Experimental Transmitter association?

27:16
Willi OE1WKL
Yes.

27:17
Eric 4Z1UG
That's kind of the austrian version of the ARRL.

27:21
Willi OE1WKL
That's right, yeah. Has a strange name for historic reasons.

27:25
Eric 4Z1UG
So you went there and what happened?

27:27
Willi OE1WKL
And I went there because I have been a member all those years. And I saw in their monthly newspaper that they were looking for someone to help them with their website. So I said, well, I want to become more active anyway. Can I help you with the website? I have a little bit of technology background, not a web designer per se, but I probably know enough to be of some help here. I helped the guy who was responsible for this, and after about a month he said, well, you know everything now I'm old. You do it by yourself, so you.

28:06
Eric 4Z1UG
End up taking this job over.

28:08
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, yeah. So this was one thing and. But the thing was, this was close to the 90 year jubilee of our society. And then they said, well, 90 years coming up, we should do a complete makeup of our website on that occasion. So I said, okay, new version of software, everything new. He said, okay, when should it be ready? Oh, they said two or three weeks from now.

28:43
Eric 4Z1UG
And did you pull it off?

28:45
Willi OE1WKL
Yes, I found, thankfully, I found another guy within our club for about two weeks. We did nothing else day and night, but setting up a new website, converting thousands of pages, writing new pages, doing I don't know what. And we delivered. Yeah.

29:08
Eric 4Z1UG
How many hams are in Austria?

29:10
Willi OE1WKL
There are about four to 5000. There are about 6000 licenses, but this includes, of course, repeater licenses and automated stations of some form and gap licenses. So the license is not to individuals, but to club stations. So it's about close to 5000, probably.

29:31
Eric 4Z1UG
Do you have a sense of how many of those are active?

29:35
Willi OE1WKL
Maybe a third of them.

29:38
Eric 4Z1UG
And do you attend a regular amateur radio club meeting?

29:42
Willi OE1WKL
Yes, I do. That was the other thing. There is a, the way our club is organized, we have local clubs, so to say that they're all under the umbrella of the National Society. And here in Vienna, there is also one club which I became. Well, I was introduced to it through a QSO, really? And there was a yl who said, well, that's. You're doing interesting stuff. I'm here with a local club. Won't you come and look what we are doing? And so I did. And it was the club within the, what they call metal up. Metal up is a hackerspace makerspace, literally in the underground because it is in a basement. But they also do some underground work, so to say. Yeah, it's interesting group, mostly young people.

30:38
Willi OE1WKL
And they have a ham radio group, they have bi weekly meetings and sometimes people come up with a interesting lectures and talks about what they are doing and what they are planning to do. And so I became active in this group as well. And this really was the spark for the Morserino project.

30:59
Eric 4Z1UG
One of the reasons that we're speaking with Willi is because Willi is the inventor of the Morserino and I happen to have one over my right shoulder here. And Willi has lots of them, probably. Can we talk about the Morserino? It appears to me that, and I'll put a link in the show notes page that you kind of started this project in terms of the funding of this project using a Kickstarter campaign. But how did that start? How did this idea for the Morserino actually become a project that you wanted to pursue?

31:30
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, that's an interesting story, really, because in this group within the metal up, were preparing for a maker fair in Vienna. It was the second maker fair that was taking place in Vienna. And they said, well, we want to be there, we want to be present there, and we want to do something that is interesting. So of course we would show a ham radio station which rang up some wire and do some qsos there. But we also want to do something more active for people who are interested to do more than just looking at someone operating a radio station.

32:05
Eric 4Z1UG
So something interactive.

32:08
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, or as a kind of a workshop, so to say, yeah. And so were brainstorming, what can we do? And, well, there was a workshop program for the maker faire, but it was sort of restricted to 1 hour workshops. It was restricted financially, so that the material should not cost more than, let's say €40 or something like that. And so, and it was restricted to the number of participants, ten people maximum, because of space requirements. So we said, yeah, to do some electronics soldering projects maybe would be nice. You can do something easy within an hour, even if people are completely new to that. But then he said, yeah, but what? What, what to build in the time of an hour, they say, yeah, you can do a blinking light or something like that.

32:59
Willi OE1WKL
People are happy that finished something and it's blinking and they take it home and then they put it in a drawer and nobody will ever look at it anymore. And at that time I had started to look at Arduinos, and the Arduino Nano had come out and was a very cheap version of the Arduino. And I was sort of experimenting how I could use the Arduino for ham radio. And one of my things I had already started was to build a Kia moss code. Kia with the Arduino. So I said, well, let's build something like that. Just a few parts loudspeaker, the Arduino, a display, a rotary encoder, and maybe two capacitive touch pedals. And we have a simple key here, and it is something people can actually use for something. And we had two months time to set up this project.

34:05
Willi OE1WKL
So together with another ham, we sat down. I did the prototype of that Kia within two weeks with an Arduino touch pedal, everything. The colleague of mine, he did the PCB for it and acquired all the parts. Then we said, how many kids are we setting up here? He said, well, ten. We have maximum of ten people. If ten are interested in the first place, if only five show up, then it's five. So we should have ten kids. I said, maybe ten is not really enough. Maybe we should do more because the price comes down a little bit if we make 20 pcb's and not just five or ten. And I said, yeah, but how are we. What are we doing with those?

34:52
Willi OE1WKL
We said, well, we make a workshop here in the metal lab, and we will find another ten people to build this. So we set up 20 kids, and then were waiting for the workshop, and 35 people were showing up, and 25 had to be turned away. But from those 25, ten were lucky, because they had the option at least to buy the kit material. So all the kids were gone. All the 20 kids were gone. And this friend of mine ordered, in total, I think, almost 200 of these kits, and sold them in the following months.

35:35
Eric 4Z1UG
For the time, it was a simple keyer.

35:37
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, it was just. It was a simple key. It had a few more features. It could generate automated Morse code for training. It was sort of really a predecessor of the. Of the Mozarino 32. We had called it metamorzerino, because it was a metalab. And, yeah, Morserino for Morsen. And Arduino was in there. And I showed this to a Hamdan in province OE6. And he is a Morse code teacher, and he was very interested in it. And it looked at it. They gave him one of these things, and then he came back and said, that's an interesting project, but it doesn't do enough to be useful for people learning Morse code. It has to be able to do this and that and maybe that and this and that. So I looked at all these things.

36:35
Willi OE1WKL
I said, in principle, it can be done, but not with an Arduino. The Arduino is just not powerful, doesn't have enough memory, isn't fast enough. It just doesn't cut it. But I can have a look and see if I find something that is a bit more powerful, and that I can do that. And so I was looking around and trying to find modules that would be suitable, and found this healthcare module that had a display on it already, which was nice. It also had Wi Fi, which was nice, also had Lora, which was new to me. It's a kind of radio. Maybe we can use it as well. It comes with the module anyway. And so I started building a prototype, and I. We were at the ham radio in Friedrichshafen, the upcoming ham radio.

37:32
Willi OE1WKL
This Morse code teacher was giving a lesson about learning Morse code. And we showed this prototype of this Morserino. And there were so many people interested in that. So we collected email addresses and said, okay, I set up a mailing list, and if there's any progress, if. If the prototype comes near to a finished product, I will let you know, and we'll see how it goes. And my estimate back then was that maybe I had maybe 150 people on the mailing list, that maybe we can make 200 kits or something like that, or maybe 300. But how to finance it? I said, well, if it cannot at least make 100 kits in the beginning, it's just not worthwhile because the expenses would be too high just to put it parts, etcetera.

38:27
Willi OE1WKL
So I had the idea to do a Kickstarter experiment, and I announced it that I will do financing through Kickstarter. I announced it on the mailing list, and it gave the date and time when it would be possible to sign up for it. And my financial goal was €6000, because I said, with €6000, I can at least have 100 kids or so, that would be fine. Now, I had, when the date come and Kickstarter went live, I had the €6000 within 3 hours. And after nine days, that was the period the campaign was running. After nine days, I had €18,000. So instead, at least 300 kids and back. So I ramped up my estimate and said, well, you probably can sell 600 of those in the long run. And so I assembled the first kits and shipped them out.

39:37
Willi OE1WKL
And without actually further marketing, just those people who got the first kits and showed it around and made YouTube videos of it or mentioned it in a podcast or on their blog or whatever. Yeah, it started growing and growing, and now, in August, just a few weeks ago, I jumped over the 10,000 hurdle.

40:05
Eric 4Z1UG
I hope that you have a nice operating margin on it so that it's funding your retirement or something like that.

40:12
Willi OE1WKL
No, no, it's not. The margin isn't that big. It's not my goal to make money with that. Never was. And getting a pension, I can live comfortably of it, so I don't need it. Just finances a bit of my hobby, let's put it that way. So previously, if I wanted a new transceiver, I had to discuss it with my wife and say, well, how does it fit into the family budget? Now I just say, well, that fits into the Morserino budget.

40:38
Eric 4Z1UG
I buy it staying on the Morserino. I have one here, and it does everything. It slices, it dices, it makes Julien fries for those people that used to stay up late at night in America. And look at the device that does everything. It does everything for CW training. But I get a sense that for me, anyway, that I'm somehow using it wrong. I know all my letters. I've known them for 50 years, I want to build my receive speed. The problem is, and it's not a problem, but Cwop says you don't want to write anything down because you want to be able to do head copy.

41:15
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah.

41:16
Eric 4Z1UG
So what's the best way? Using the more sereno. If you already know your letters, you can actually go along at five, six, eight words a minute, but you want to build up speed. How should the Morserino be used to build up speed?

41:31
Willi OE1WKL
I would say once you know all your letters, the best way is to use the Echo trainer. You can start with things that are familiar, like english words, the most common english words, or the most common ham radio abbreviations. And you can limit the length of these words. So say, give me just words that are three letters long, which is easier to remember, and you start, well, you should start with at least, I would say, 15 words per minute as a.

42:04
Eric 4Z1UG
Speed, just to kind of fill in the gaps here. The Echo trainer setup allows you to choose what characters are sent to you and how. So right now, I've been playing with it with random characters, and some of those random characters also include punctuation marks and abbreviations for things. So if that's too confusing for me, that's a little confusing. Then I can actually go to simple words like ate and eat and three letter words.

42:35
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, that's right. You have all options. Also, random characters. You can limit to, say, just alphabetical characters or alphabetical characters plus numbers. So you can build up from the more common things to the more exotic things. You can also use text and upload a text file to the mozerino, and it will play the text file. So like. Like an audiobook in Morse code. Yeah.

43:03
Eric 4Z1UG
How about callsigns? If I wanted echo test call signs.

43:08
Willi OE1WKL
There'S also a callsign mode which sort of generates artificial call sign things. They are not real life call signs. They look like real life call signs, though, and you can use those also. Starting, we say limit them to three letters only and then go to four and then to five. Start with short ones, and once your memory is sort of ready for it, go to longer ones.

43:33
Eric 4Z1UG
I've been recently playing with this echo mode because I wasn't feeling with a CW generator, for example, that it was giving me. I could copy it in my brain, but it wasn't going back to my hand. What was interesting about the echo mode is you actually have to know what the letters are in order to be able to repeat them because you kind of have to say it in your head in order to be able to send it properly. Have I got that right in terms of how that echo mode works?

43:58
Willi OE1WKL
That's right, yeah. It provides a challenge, and in a way, that's my experience with people who do it also, they see it as a game. And it is a bit of. It is addictive in a way you don't want to stop. Just another word. And maybe not another one. And another one. And you can. If. If this is not enough challenge for you can also set it in a way that if after each correct answer, it ramps up the speed, so it goes maybe from 15 words per minute to 16 words per minute. And if your next answer is correct, it goes up to 17 words per minute again. If your answer is wrong, it goes back down again. So you are really approaching your limits all the time.

44:46
Eric 4Z1UG
One of the things I've noticed about it is it's not very forgiving when you're sending code into it, in terms of if you're reproducing a word or a phrase. Is that adjustable? Can you adjust the Morserino for kind of the weight of your fist?

45:01
Willi OE1WKL
Not really. And that's on purpose. It is a very strict taskmaster. Yeah, a very strict teacher. Because I think if a machine cannot decode your code, your fist, then many other hands will also not be able to decode it. There will be maybe a bit more forgiving to have more context than a machine usually has. And so they can infer what you might have meant. But it's better when you are learning to be. To get. To get a feeling for the timing, a strict feeling for the correct timing. And especially, I mean, if you use a straight key, you will never hit it 100% probably, but it should be strict enough so that a machine can decode it.

45:49
Eric 4Z1UG
I think that makes a lot of sense. It makes you a very fine CW operator. Could we talk a little bit about. It has some wireless features in the latest software. The module contains Lora. What is Lora and how is it used in the Morserino?

46:06
Willi OE1WKL
First? Yes, wireless features were in from the beginning, really? Both Wi Fi and Lora. Now, Wi Fi, everybody knows what that is. And I use it in the Morserino for. You can use it for updates, for firmware updates, for uploading files, text files, those. We mentioned. Those.

46:25
Eric 4Z1UG
Does that mean if I have two or more Morserinos in the same Wifi network, in my own home network, I could actually create a group of more Morserinos that communicate with each other?

46:36
Willi OE1WKL
Yes. Yes, you can.

46:38
Eric 4Z1UG
Without a server, without a server, you.

46:40
Willi OE1WKL
Even can do this across the Internet, point to point, not a group, it's just two point to points.

46:48
Eric 4Z1UG
If you know the destination IP address.

46:50
Willi OE1WKL
You need the destination IP address. And you have to set up your router normally, because you usually have a firewall, so you have to allow the return traffic coming through to port forwarding. So that's a little bit more complicated. You have to know a little bit about configuring an Internet router, but you can do that. But what is easier to do and what many people do, there are several servers out there, and you can point them and they are sort of chat relays for the Mozarino. You point them to them, and whatever they get, they redistribute to everyone who is listening. And so groups of people can have a QSO, like on the Jonasphere, so to say.

47:30
Eric 4Z1UG
But that would solve the problem of somebody who has an IP address that changes, for example, right?

47:35
Willi OE1WKL
That's right, yeah. And there's no configuration necessary on your firewall or anything. It just works. Yeah.

47:42
Eric 4Z1UG
They could also log into the server. And in that scenario, are there a large number of Morserino users that are getting on these chat groups and communicating?

47:53
Willi OE1WKL
It's probably not a large group, but there are some, and there are even groups that set up their own server on the Internet, which is relatively easy. The code for that is a simple python script. It's also open source. It was originally written by a ham from Poland, and you can run it on a Raspberry Pi or literally on anything that runs Python. And this is out on the open Internet, so to say. Or you do it locally in a wide area network with VPN's or whatever, all options. And people clubs are setting this up for their training classes, for example, most called training classes.

48:36
Eric 4Z1UG
So you have the ability to go use Lora direct between the Morserino devices if you want to use them. I actually have an unusual circumstance. I have grandchildren that are not connected to anything except the telephone, but one of them is expressing an interest in the Morse code, but is not allowed to be on any network. This is beginning to look interesting as an alternative for them to be able to practice Morse code with me, for example, without being on the Internet. So that seems like that's an interesting solution. Also, can I use my Morserino with my old 50 year old transmitter, for example, because my Kenwood TS 520 does not have an electronic keyer in it, and I'd like to use electronic keying. Can I use the Morserino for that?

49:22
Willi OE1WKL
Yes, of course. It has an output with an optocoupler which is resistant up to 60 volts. So even tube based transmitters probably work well.

49:36
Eric 4Z1UG
Or you could use a relay with that.

49:38
Willi OE1WKL
You could use a relay between. But I think most reasonably modern transmitters would need it as it is completely isolated galvanically and is resistant 60 volts. So that should be enough for most purposes.

49:55
Eric 4Z1UG
Right. And that just plugs right into the back?

49:57
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, and you just plug it instead of your key and you have your Mozerino as your keyer. And with the latest, one of the latest versions it's also a memory key. So you have up to I think eight or ten memories.

50:10
Eric 4Z1UG
CQ DX for example.

50:12
Willi OE1WKL
It's a bit a challenge to program those. That's not so easy. You need a. In some way you need a computer to program those memories, but there are ways to do that even for people that are not very technical. And then you have a memory key.

50:27
Eric 4Z1UG
Does the Morserino have a web interface? Can I log into it on my network if it's sitting on Wi Fi and actually program those memory spaces?

50:36
Willi OE1WKL
Not through a web interface but you can connect it through USB. It has a serial interface. And there is also some software written by Ham from Austria that runs in a browser. You need a chrome browser or something that is based on the chrome engine because they support serial ports, serial connections. And through the serial connection you can completely remote control your Morserino one hand. On the other hand everything you do on the mozerino is sent to your browser and is sort of displayed on the browser. You can even use it to hear the manuals if you don't want to read them. On display of the Morserino. It speaks the menu items for you. We designed that really in order to care for blind hands who would not be able to Morserino because they wouldn't be able to see the menu.

51:38
Eric 4Z1UG
So now they hear the menu and they can use the Morserino for practicing even when they are blind.

51:47
Eric 4Z1UG
I think my Morserino is probably two years old. Can I get software or firmware updates for it?

51:53
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, sure. Yeah. You can go to the Morserino GitHub and download the newest version. You can jump directly from the oldest version to the newest version so you don't have to go version by version. It just takes the newest version and install it.

52:11
Eric 4Z1UG
And now this mid show break every two weeks I listen to the Ham radio Workbench podcast with George KJ6VU, Vince VE6LK, Mark N6MTS, Thomas K4SWL, Michael VA3MW, and Rod, VA3ON, on and their guest on often topical and important projects in amateur radio. This discussion amongst the regulars and their guests remind me of the conversations that I used to listen to on 146.94 and 146.46 MHz in Orange County, California while working on my own workbench almost 50 years ago. It is amazing how much practical ham radio knowledge that we can absorb by listening to the Workbench podcast. That starts to make sense when we start our own deep dive into our own projects.

53:02
Eric 4Z1UG
So join me by listening to the Ham radio Workbench podcast now and as George and crew push beyond 200 episodes, you can get to the Ham radio workbench podcast by clicking on the banner in this week's show notes page. And now back to our QSO.

53:19
Eric 4Z1UG
And what do you prefer when you're using your Morserino? Do you use your own paddles or do you like to use the capacitive paddles?

53:26
Willi OE1WKL
Well, I do both also for testing how they work. I think the paddles work quite well up to, I would say speeds of maybe 25 words per minute. Some people are using it with 30 words per minute. Even if you really go into high speed above 30 words per minute, then a very a good high quality mechanical paddle is better.

53:50
Eric 4Z1UG
And as the Morserino creator, do you carry it with you when you go traveling just so that you have your CW companion?

53:59
Willi OE1WKL
Sometimes I do. But I have to admit something here. My original idea in the very beginning was to build something like that for my own purpose, to improve my code. But the irony is the big success of the Morserino prevented me from actually using it.

54:18
Willi OE1WKL
I hear that because I'm shipping out 120 to 150 kits every month. This is more or less a full time job now, and when you are retired you have no time to do a job. You know how it is. So having a, having this job and all the other retirement obligations is. It's really tough.

54:39
Eric 4Z1UG
Yeah, I understand that as well.

54:42
Willi OE1WKL
So I'd like to do more with my Morserino except just testing the software.

54:47
Eric 4Z1UG
I realize that you're probably not on the air as much as you'd probably like to be, but do you have a current rig? What do you operate when you do operate?

54:57
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, I have rig, but it's essentially all QRP. As an apartment dweller, I'm very much restricted to setting up antennas, so I'm using makeshift antennas, more or less experimental stuff like using the lightning arrester as antenna quite well. Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't feed a kilowatt into it. I wouldn't know what it does to all the neighbors in the building. But with QRP, that's fine. And it allowed me to bridge with five watts of power to bridge maybe seven, 7000, 8000 km.

55:37
Eric 4Z1UG
What's the QRP rig?

55:39
Willi OE1WKL
I have several. I have an Icom IC 705. I have a Ziego X 6100. And my newest acquisition is a QRP-Labs QMX plus. That's the newest one. But you are right, I'm not as much on the air as I would like to because the Morserino project costs me a lot of time talking about the project. In a way, what is being shipped out now is the second version of the Morserino 32 about. When was it? Three years ago, four years ago. I had to do some hardware changes because of the availability of certain parts. The last speaker was not available anymore. The module that I'm using, that also has the processor, it has changed. And so I had to do a new layout.

56:30
Willi OE1WKL
And now this version is coming to the end of its life after more than 10,000 kits being sold in total. And 10,000 means about 2500 of the. Of the first version, about 7500 of the second version. Because the healthcare module that I'm using is sort of not being manufactured anymore, not available on the market. So the decision that I'm up to is, will there be a third generation of it or not? And this decision will be made later this year. Currently it looks a bit like it, yeah. The chances are maybe 66% is the.

57:09
Eric 4Z1UG
Issue for you on creating and selling. The Morserino more around the logistics of part accumulation and kitting and all that stuff. More than the design itself.

57:22
Willi OE1WKL
Yes. The design, of course, is fun because doing something new all the time, and that's always fun. It's a challenge sometimes, but it's interesting and fun. All the other things that the logistics, getting parts. I mean, during the pandemic, it was very difficult for a while because all the transport roads were affected and there were huge delays and all the electronic companies were hoarding parts because the different supply chain issues. So that we are just buying things as much as they could. So that was really hard. And all the kitting is a lot of time shipping it and do all the logistics around it. So I'm reconsidering all the options here. Right now I'm checking how much effort is it to do a redesign because a new version of this module has a lot of changes.

58:15
Willi OE1WKL
It's not binary compatible means do some software porting as well.

58:22
Eric 4Z1UG
It seems to me that Digikey started with a keyer. The original Digikey was like 1969, and that started this billion dollar parts distribution company as it exists today. It's international. Have you thought about coming up with a collaboration where they actually kit the parts for you? Maybe the case and the board and stuff would have to be supplied, but it seems to me that, wow, in terms of a turnkey parts distribution kit distribution business, they could do all this work. There's some other people I know that are doing work with Digikey as well. Digikey is one of the companies in Israel that I can just order stuff from. And it gets here, like in three days, which blows me out of the water. There's no problems with the customs, and they do this all over the world. Have you thought about something like that?

59:17
Willi OE1WKL
Yes, I'm considering things like that because really, the kitting and shipping part is the. Is the most time consuming it by far. Yeah. And the most tiring. I am in discussion with somebody, let's put it that way. I cannot disclose it for now, but discussions are ongoing to find some other way for shipping these things, for shipping the kids out, and hopefully this comes to a good end. And if so, and if my decision that the redesign for a new version is not too much effort, then there might be a new version out in 2025.

01:00:01
Eric 4Z1UG
Over 40 years ago, I used to work for a company that made tone boards for two way radios. The owner was a ham, still is a ham. I think the company still exists. Communication Specialists and Spence Porter, WA6TPR was the owner of it. And I once had a conversation with him because he was buying machines to do things like, if you were going to send out a kit, a tone board kit, well, you had to have, like, four fiber washers, and you had to have four bolts, four nuts, and you had to have four lock washers. And you could hire people to actually sit there with a rubber end of a pencil and separate all that stuff.

01:00:41
Eric 4Z1UG
But he ended up buying these machines that you dump all of the screws in, and the thing would drop all the stuff, the exact number, into a plastic bag, seal the bag and drop it into a bin. And he says, you know, if you can buy a machine, it works twenty four seven. And does this work, then it makes this job easier. This seems like the greatest time. We don't have Heathkit anymore, but we do have a lot of companies that are making kit radios. QRP Labs, you're making the Morserino. I know that the Ham Radio Workbench guys have their kits as well, but there's all kinds of kit companies out there. But the worst part about this kit job is kitting. It's the drudgery work.

01:01:25
Eric 4Z1UG
And if you can have a fulfillment house that has all of the machines to separate the resistors and oh, whatever. That was something I learned over 40 years ago. If you could have a machine that does this repetitive, mind numbing work, then it makes the design part even more interesting.

01:01:45
Willi OE1WKL
That's certainly true. And as you said, it's either machines or you have access to very cheap labor, which in certain parts of the world also works quite well.

01:01:57
Willi OE1WKL
You're absolutely right that certainly we have the ability to purchase things in the world that are made with very cheap labor. At least in the west we benefit from that.

01:02:07
Eric 4Z1UG
What is Flipboard magazine?

01:02:09
Eric 4Z1UG
I see that you're a contributor. I've never heard of Flipboard magazine before. What is that? Is that like substack?

01:02:16
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, it's similar. It's essentially just a collection of URL's. Yeah. And it presents this as a magazine. And I'm sort of editing Ham radio magazine. So I'm just. If I read something interesting, I'm subscribed to so many blogs and channels, and if I see something that might find a wider interest, I just flip it to the flipboard and the readers. I think I have about 1700 subscribers to this page, but also occasional things, people who just stumble over it and then find a page or one or two. So I think I had quite millions of accesses really to the flipboard, but about 1700 subscribers to it. And for me it's not much I do know, editing or commenting. I just see something that is interesting, as in, well, that deserves a wider audience. So I flip it there.

01:03:19
Willi OE1WKL
And the subscribers, they use this as their main source of information, everything about ham radio.

01:03:27
Eric 4Z1UG
Right. So you're curating amateur radio content for your followers.

01:03:31
Willi OE1WKL
Yes.

01:03:32
Eric 4Z1UG
Can we go back the introduction of the Morserino to your maker space there in Vienna. Did that have an effect of attracting younger people to ham radio? Does it have that kind of magnetic effect?

01:03:47
Willi OE1WKL
No, I don't think so. It is attractive for hams, but it is not attracting people to ham radio in general. There are exceptions because there are some people who take the Morserino, for example, to classroom projects. I know a guy who does that regularly once a year. So he goes to his local school and here's an arrangement with the teachers. And he is given 2 hours and he explains a little bit about Morse code and the history of Morse code and why people are using Morse code. And then he demonstrates the Morserino. He demonstrates Morse code. They have to learn a few characters or numbers, usually four or five characters. They learn, and they learn them by singing them. So he's singing da di da da. Yeah. And they are repeating. And children learn like that very quickly.

01:04:46
Willi OE1WKL
So within no time, then they have four, five, six characters, and then it distributes them into two classrooms, adjacent classrooms, and gives a Morserino to each of them. And then one class has to send one character and the other one has to hear it and send it back. And then they send a character of their choice, and the other class has to hear it, decode it, and send it back. And that's. That's interesting for young people. They like that very much.

01:05:16
Eric 4Z1UG
So I thought maybe the makerspace might be the place to attract young people to amateur radio. But do you have any thoughts? Is there something that we could do better to attract young people to amateur radio from an austrian perspective?

01:05:30
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, I think that there are two areas, schools we have, I think now in Vienna, at least two or three schools where they have a ham radio station and a teacher who is interested and offers classes and projects with them. Schools are one area where you can attract people. Maker spaces in general, at least here in Austria, are not very good, attracting very young people. Most people that are attracted by makerspace are already at university level, usually 18, 1920 years old and older, rarely any younger.

01:06:10
Eric 4Z1UG
And do makerspaces attract people like they live in apartments and therefore can't have a power shop in their house?

01:06:17
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. You have no room for your 3d printer or laser cutter or whatever, so you go there. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's. That's one of the reasons. And I mean the other reason. You find sort of like minded people. Yeah. That's the same kind of attraction that amateur radio clubs had, at least in the past. Yeah. You find like minded people. I think within ham radio, we have become a bit bad about that. Yeah, yeah. As ham radio gups, we are not attracting people anymore, really. That's at least, that's my observation that many cubs are more or less. There are a bunch of friends who meet regularly, maybe once a month or something like that. They meet for a beer or pizza or whatever, but if an outsider joins them, they hardly talk to them. They don't explain anything.

01:07:12
Willi OE1WKL
They are not inviting them to any activities, and that's a shame. Really? Because that would be also a way to attract people. And honestly, there are two groups of people that you can attract. Young people. When they go to school and university, they might find the time and easy and eager to learn new things. And the other group is people who may be close to their retirement because they are looking for a new hobby for the time when they are retired.

01:07:47
Eric 4Z1UG
I've actually seen this lately in some of the interviews that I've made, that retired people, there's a social opportunity that lends itself with amateur radio for retired people. And then it's even more valuable when they become widowed that they still have some way of communicating with the outside world. And, you know, I rely upon my wife Karen, to, like, keep the social life going. She runs the social calendar. And I can only imagine that if she wasn't around, would I have a social calendar. And it's my amateur radio connections that actually draw me out of the house on my own. I can see that there's a huge value in amateur radio for retired and older people.

01:08:31
Eric 4Z1UG
I'm jumping around and I apologize to the listeners, but you have such an interesting background, and you do so much that I want to make sure that I touch on this. You are now on a committee at the ARDC. The RDC is the organization that used to be Amperenet. They dole out money for amateur radio projects that meet their grant criteria. Could you talk a little bit about what you're doing now on the ARDC?

01:08:57
Willi OE1WKL
Yes, I'm a member of what they call the get the grant evaluation team. So this team looks at projects that have been granted and have been finished, and we look at how the project went from the very beginning. What did they apply for? Why did they apply for it? How did they apply for it? How did the project develop? How did it end? Were all the objectives met? Was it a good project to be funded, or was it questionable? Was it successful? Success is very difficult to define here, because even a project that fails can be successful in a way, because it is always an opportunity for learning. For the people who did the project, they learned, they failed, but they learned a lot, even when failing.

01:09:50
Willi OE1WKL
So failure is not really a very strong criteria, except if you publish nothing of your project, if nothing is published and there is no way to learn anything from it, then it was really a failure. But those are very rare in most cases. Even if they did not achieve all the objectives written out when they applied for the grant, they usually achieve a lot, and they learned from the failings as well. And many have set up websites or other ways presentations of what they did and how they did it. So that's all very useful. And we are sort of evaluating that and also giving feedback to the ARDC board and to the grant advisory committee to improve the way how grants are being spread around the globe.

01:10:46
Willi OE1WKL
We want, the ARDC wants to be as inclusive as possible, inclusive in all ways, inclusive with regard to gender, with regard to race, ethnicity, etcetera. Geographically, started originally in the US, and it's still very us centric. But there is a lot of effort going on to spread the word outside the US as well, and to include as many people as possible and many clubs, etcetera.

01:11:15
Eric 4Z1UG
One of the things that occurs to me, by spreading these opportunities around the world, it also protects the radio spectrum that we so zealously guard that we've had for 100 years, because there's a lot of large corporate interests around the world that would love to have the spectrum that we have, of course, both HF and all the way through the microwave band. So I think that this is very powerful. Do you think that with this feedback that you're giving ARDC, is ARDC now able to, say, help define the implementation of a grant project, meaning that it can provide a framework for tracking the goals of the granted project and how that is implemented and reported?

01:12:02
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, I think it, I mean, they always had some kind of framework, but with these things, especially if you start something new, and this was a very new thing in the beginning, there's always room for improvement, and it's a continuous process to improve things and to refocus on certain areas and say, well, we also look at what is the public impact of a project, for example, what is the exposure of a project to the general public? And we have seen some projects with a huge exposure.

01:12:33
Willi OE1WKL
When people are doing things at huge fairs, for example, with ten thousands of visitors, then you have a huge audience that you can reach, possibly or others are doing things in the connection with emergency networks, setting up mobile stations, radio stations, radio towers, repeaters, and explaining to the public, and to maybe the organizations like the Red Cross or the firefighters, etcetera, explaining to them what amateur radio can do in the case of a disaster. And that's very helpful, I think also for the general awareness, and we need a lot of general awareness or general public awareness if we want to protect our spectrum.

01:13:25
Eric 4Z1UG
I think so. I begin the podcast usually with ham radio. Do people still do that? Because there are many times when I'm out in the public, whether it's in the United States or here in Israel. In Israel, we call it Hovavi radio of friends. It's friends radio. And people will go, well, I remember that from the sixties, or I remember that from the seventies. But do people still do that? I mean, that's almost a universal reaction to when you say that you still do amateur radio. I like to say ham radio is more exciting now than it's ever been. The more sereno is a good example of this combination of being able to integrate these technologies to create something really interesting and spectacular. But we're doing that on every front.

01:14:11
Eric 4Z1UG
And the Internet gives us this ability to move at hyper speed in terms of advancing the state of the art. When the turnaround time could be a year on an idea years ago. Now we do it in minutes, which makes it even more exciting. But I think that for some reason, we are nothing communicating to the general public that we are still here and that we're more relevant than ever. I've had this idea in my mind that I need to write a column for the ARp magazine, which is american advancement of retired people. It's a magazine for old people. You start getting it at 52 years of age or something like that, has great articles in it, but I've never seen an article about amateur radio. And it seems like it's the prescription for a lot of what ails us when we're older.

01:15:00
Eric 4Z1UG
What excites you the most about what's happening in amateur radio now, beyond the mosarino?

01:15:08
Willi OE1WKL
I would say it's all the possibilities we have with getting very new, extreme, very low price, or extremely low price equipment through SDI, etcetera. And if you look at the transceivers of QRP labs for dollar 100 or dollar 150, you get technology marvel, that would have cost thousands of dollars 20 years ago, and it wouldn't have features that you have now in even these tiniest machines, like lcd display and things like that. So the combination with modern technology, microprocessors, etcetera, that's very exciting. Also, what I find interesting is that through things like, for example, reverse beacon network, WhisperNet, and PSK Reporter. We have so many means now to observe the propagation conditions around the globe. That was very difficult.

01:16:07
Willi OE1WKL
20, 25, 30 years ago, you really had to go out and try to establish a connection by calling CQ, and then you would see if it would work into a certain area of the world, or it wouldn't. But now you just glance at your screen on your computer and you know exactly what's going on. It also has a downside of course, because people are not calling secure anymore.

01:16:30
Eric 4Z1UG
You can profile antenna now with Whispernet.

01:16:33
Willi OE1WKL
Exactly. And all the tools we have with our computers, what we can do, like antenna modeling in theory, before you build something. Also doing electronics modeling before you build something. So it's also exciting, I think, for home brewers. That's also something I think we should preach a bit more to people. Not just to buy some plug and play equipment, but go out and build something yourself. Even if a simple wire based antenna or whatever, a simple electronics project, try to do something yourself. I think that's an important message also to our ham colleagues.

01:17:13
Eric 4Z1UG
Would that be the advice that you would give not only to your ham colleagues, but to new or returning hams to the hobby?

01:17:19
Willi OE1WKL
I will do something, build something, even if it's simple, doesn't have to be a transceiver with all bells and whistles. Get some kids. You mentioned it already. There are so many kids out there for all sorts of things. Get something. Just try it out. Build something. Build something with an arduino or some other microprocessor. There are also kids out there for that. You can experiment. It's so cost effective. It doesn't cost anything, really. It's a few beers, give you a microprocessor and a display and things to play with.

01:17:54
Willi OE1WKL
You can afford to burn a few of them up.

01:17:57
Eric 4Z1UG
Yeah, that's right.

01:17:58
Eric 4Z1UG
Because they're not expensive.

01:18:00
Willi OE1WKL
They're not expensive. All these electronic parts, they are so cheap nowadays. And I think that's certainly one of the, that's an advice I would give everybody. The other thing is find a group of young enthusiasts, like a makerspace, and go there. It's really inspiring just to see, even if it's not completely focused on ham radio, even if just talk about laser cutters or 3d printers, these are all things that are also useful in our hobby, by the way. You can build cases, you can build lots of things that are useful. And just to learn something new, how these things work, they are just inspiring. And I think finding young people that are enthusiastic about these things is also good advice.

01:18:49
Willi OE1WKL
A third advice is no, it was actually something that is exciting for me as a hamdan is the fact that even the oldest technology, like Morse code, is alive and actually growing. That's my impression. People are getting more interested in it, although it is that old. The oldest electronic communication technology, if you want, and I want to tell a little story here, because when I tell people that I do the Moserino and people that are not hams, maybe they said well, are people actually really using Morse code? And I said, yes, and there are quite a few, really? They said, but, yeah, but commercially, Morse code isn't being used. It doesn't matter if it's airplanes, ships, whatever. Nobody's using Morse code. I said, yeah, in a way, commercially, it is not being used. That is true. But sailing boats are not used commercially.

01:19:52
Willi OE1WKL
And I'm sure, you know, people who go out sailing, why are they doing this? Why are people going out sailing? When the propeller and the engine has been invented and you can buy a motorboat, why are they going out and sailing? Because it is fun.

01:20:08
Eric 4Z1UG
Or why do they buy a mountain bike when they can buy an e bike?

01:20:11
Willi OE1WKL
Right. It is fun. It is a challenge. You have to learn it. In the beginning, it is hard, but once you master it, and even if you are not yet a master, but just along the way, if you have made some progress, that's satisfying and that's fun, and that's why people are doing it. And that's why people are still using ham Radeon, where they're still using Morse code, because it is fun.

01:20:36
Eric 4Z1UG
Well, you know, I get the impression that the Morse code is more popular now is because I think that, at least for me, I'm continually bombarded by either audible information or visual information. I mean, when you have a smartphone and you've got the Internet and stuff, your brain is on overload. And right now, here in Israel, with the war going on, we're being fed information on a minute by minute basis. It's stressful. And what I find about the Morse code is that it's kind of like it separates your brain from the rest of the noise. And I think even if you're in America or you're in Austria, if you like the Morse code, it's because it's a way to kind of like, there's a zen about it. There's like a meditation about the Morse code.

01:21:24
Willi OE1WKL
That's right. You focus on something, and you focus on that and nothing else. Yeah.

01:21:30
Eric 4Z1UG
Right. And it's good for your brain. Again, for older people, maybe it'll delay dementia, which may be inevitable for all of us if we live long enough, but maybe it's a way to kind of keep those neurons firing in our brains as we get older.

01:21:46
Willi OE1WKL
Yeah, absolutely. Agree to that. Yeah.

01:21:49
Eric 4Z1UG
Willi, I want to thank you so much for joining me on the QSO Today podcast. I knew this would be fun. I'm so glad that you agreed to talk to me about you and about the more sereno I know. That I'll get some very good feedback from this episode, so I appreciate it so much that you came on board.

01:22:10
Willi OE1WKL
Thank you. Thank you for the conversation.

01:22:13
Willi OE1WKL
73 73 to you.

01:22:17
Eric 4Z1UG
That concludes this episode of QSO today. I hope that you enjoyed this QSO with Willi. Please be sure to check out the show notes that include links and information about the topics that we discussed. Go to www.qsotoday.com and put an Oe one WKL in the search box at the top of the page. You can sponsor the transcription of this episode or any of the previous episodes by clicking on the transcription button on every show notes page. The cost is dollar 75 per episode, regardless of the length. We will quickly transcribe the episode and give you credit for your sponsorship. Please send us the call sign of the podcast to make sure that we transcribe what you want. Remember that QSO today is value for value. Please support our project by making a donation or becoming a listener sponsor today.

01:23:09
Eric 4Z1UG
Use our Amazon link before shopping at Amazon as we receive a small commission on your Amazon purchases. Subscribe to our mailing lists, both my blog and the podcast, and forward the messages to friends and family who would enjoy QSO today content. Promote us on social media and give us a five star rating and reviews whenever you are asked. QSO Today is available on every podcast, player and venue, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and podcasting 2.0. Get a podcasting 2.0 player to make it easy to get your next episode as soon as we publish. My thanks to Ben Breski, who as the consummate artist, makes this host and his guests always sound brilliant. Ben also publishes a weekly jewish history podcast. There is a link to that on the QSO Today homepage. Until next time, this is Eric four Z one UG 73.

01:24:06
Eric 4Z1UG
The QSO Today Podcast is a product of KEG Media, Inc. Who is solely responsible for its content.

This is a bittersweet moment for me. As with this episode of QSO Today, I have reached 500 episodes published of this oral history of ham radio. The sweet thing is that along the way, I have met the most interesting amateurs, heard their stories, helped them to tell them here on the podcast. I have made lots of new friends and have learned so much more about the hobby than I thought I ever would. The bitter truth, at least for today, is that my father, George Guth, passed away this morning at the age of 94 years. Today is May 3, 2024. I remember him with a blog post link in the show notes. So here we are, it's episode 500. No party or panel discussion, just another great interview. Here we go into the future.


Hiroki Kato. AH6CY was born and raised in Hiroshima, Japan, 20 miles from the epicenter of the atomic bomb blast in August 1945 that killed approximately 100,000 Japanese. Hiroki was fascinated with radio as a youngster and was first licensed in Japan. After moving to the USA, Hiroki continued to pursue amateur radio and began to research and collect military radios that both the Japanese used to bomb her Pearl Harbor and the radios that were on the Enola gay, the US bomber that dropped the Hiroshima bomb. AH6CY tells his ham radio story and about these radio restorations in this QSO today. AH6CY, this is Eric 4Z1UG, are you there? Hiroki?




Hiroki AH6CY
02:56
Hello, Eric, this is AH6CY.




Eric 4Z1UG
02:59
Nice to see you, Hiroki, thank you for joining me on the QSO Today podcast. Can we start at the beginning of your ham radio story. When and how did it start for you?




Hiroki AH6CY
03:11
I was born in Hiroshima, Japan, about 20 miles outside of the city of Hiroshima. It was a kind of small village, and although today it is part of the city of Hiroshima, when I was a fourth grader, mind you, I was born three years before the end of World War 2. And so I grew up in the post World War 2 era, and everything was in disarray and everybody was poor. The only item that is anything to do with electricity or electronics in a house was a broken radio. When I was a fourth grader, nine years old, my father gave me this broken radio. I took it apart and put it back. Lo and behold, it worked, and I was hooked. And so I started tinkering around with the radios. These were, of course, two radios.




Eric 4Z1UG
04:17
Hiroki, did you have tools?




Hiroki AH6CY
04:19
Well, the only tools I had was actually screwdriver and a little wrench and the. And I didn't even have a soldering iron then, but that was soon was the first item I acquired, and I had to beg my father to buy one. It was an expensive item in our economic status then. But anyway, as I said, the radio worked, and so that was hooked. And so I started building my own radio, and I built a lot of shortwave radios. And when I was 15, I decided to try for the ham radio license. And the ham radio was opened after World War 2, a few years before I actually applied for the license. So I built my first homebrew radio, which is a five watt, six valve or tube radio. Unbeknownst to me at that time, this was 1957.




Hiroki AH6CY
05:40
This was at the peak of the cycle 19 sunspot cycle. I had no idea. But with my misery, five watts, I could reach all over Japan practically every day, any time of the day. The condition was that good. And my interest in ham radio further increased. So I was quite active in operating my own home radios. I built a number of them, and so I was quite active throughout the high school.




Eric 4Z1UG
06:18
So when you built that five watt, 6V6 transmitter, what did you use for the receiver? The same receiver that you had fixed before?




Hiroki AH6CY
06:25
No, I had five tube super heather nine. Again, homebrew variety, similar to the commercial.




Eric 4Z1UG
06:34
AM radios that were popular in those days.




Hiroki AH6CY
06:37
Yes, indeed. I secured the 2, 10 meter, 30ft tall bamboo from a nearby forest, and that was my first dipole antenna.




Eric 4Z1UG
06:51
You were 15 years old when you got your first license in Japan. What was your first call sign and how did the licensing work there? Did they have, like, the novice license and the higher grades, or did they just have one grade of license?




Hiroki AH6CY
07:04
There were four classes of license in Japan, and the entry level was the. Called fourth class. No, I'm sorry, the form class and theCWclass. And I had a phone class, so my first radio was actually am transmitter, not cw. And theCWwas not required for this phone class. And my first call sign was JA4AAO Juliet Alpha four.




Eric 4Z1UG
07:53
And that was a phone class license.




Hiroki AH6CY
07:56
Right.




Eric 4Z1UG
07:56
What were the privileges? Just the ten meter band or was there other privileges that went along with it?




Hiroki AH6CY
08:01
You can operate on 80, 15 and 10, all AM.




Eric 4Z1UG
08:08
Was there a power limitation?




Hiroki AH6CY
08:10
Ten watts.




Eric 4Z1UG
08:12
So cycle 19 must have been really great. I've interviewed people that were there during cycle 19. They said you could load up a wet noodle and talk around the world.




Hiroki AH6CY
08:20
Yes, indeed. It was a very forgiving time.




Eric 4Z1UG
08:26
Now, it's my understanding that there's almost 2 million Japanese hams now in a relatively small population, compared to the United States. Why do you think that Japan took to ham radio? Because it sounds to me like they took to ham radio organically. About the same time that you got into ham radio.




Hiroki AH6CY
08:46
There were a number of reasons why there are Japanese hams than in American hams. One of the most immediate factor that makes people want to do the ham radio was ease of entry. Imagine that you can start talking on the phone, am phone, from the very beginning. That was a big enticement for me and for many others. And even though there was an entry level CWclass, very few people took it, because, as you know, it takes time to learn Moscow, whereas am, you can just start getting on there right away. And that was one of the reasons. And also there has been. Second factor I can think of is there has always been the arts and craft tradition in the Japanese culture. And the people are quite used to building little things.




Hiroki AH6CY
09:52
Like I built all of my toys, essentially, when I was like five, six years old, using whatever is available around me. Every little kid carried a little pocket knife. If you combine the use of chopsticks, if you have a little knife to cut all kinds of things. And these were the times when, for example, you know, sharpening the pencil means you actually use a knife to sharpen pencil. I don't think the American kids have ever used, actually, in at least in the past hundred years or so, using a knife to sharpen the pencil. It's an electric sharpener or, you know, some, the one, the kind you use by just sticking it in and twisting it.




Hiroki AH6CY
10:50
But, but it was a standard, very common thing for us kids to sharpen the pencil with a knife, that these all enhance, contribute to the use of hands to build things. And so that was a second reason. And the third reason is that there is a government actually encouraged anybody, especially young kids, to get into amateur radio. In fact, even today, if you have the 10,000 QSO that you can, QSOs you have conducted, you can approve, then government give you, issue you an award. I don't know of any other governments in the world which actively encourage the young people to get into ham radio.




Eric 4Z1UG
11:47
I'm assuming access to telephones was probably not easy.




Hiroki AH6CY
11:51
Absolutely. Probably. I must have been about 1213 years old. This was like ten years after the war was over that we got our first telephone, and majority of neighbors didn't have a phone. So the telephone and was not ubiquitous presence. So that's another probably factor, too.




Eric 4Z1UG
12:19
They used to tell a joke here in Israel. I was here in 1981 as a student. If you wanted a telephone, you had to order it and you had to wait a long time. So the joke was, you order the telephone and you say, well, when will it be delivered? And the telephone operator says, well, today is December 14, 1980. I think we can deliver it on February 3, 1982. He says, I think I'm busy that day. And she says, you're busy on February 14, 1982. He says, yeah, the air conditioning guy is coming that day.




Hiroki AH6CY
12:53
I see.




Eric 4Z1UG
12:54
So ham radio was very popular here until the rise of smartphones and cellular phones. But it sounds to me like the Japanese are still encouraging kids to come into ham radio. Maybe that's one of the things that the west needs to do in terms of getting more ham radio operators. It certainly benefits the society.




Hiroki AH6CY
13:14
Right. And the fact that there are many ham radio operators, whether they stay active or not, but they just dip their feet into electronics that way, I'm sure have contributed tremendously to the development electronics industry in Japan today. Of course, we see products coming all over the Asian countries, Korea, Taiwan, China, Vietnam, India, etcetera. The fact that the Japanese pick up the sort of the industrial development early on after World War 2 ended, I think owes at least partially to the presence of many ham radio operators who naturally continued their interest in electronics industry.




Eric 4Z1UG
14:12
Well, you know, transistor radios. In the sixties, Japanese transistor radios were ubiquitous in America.




Hiroki AH6CY
14:18
Absolutely.




Eric 4Z1UG
14:20
Every beach towel in California had a Japanese transistor radio. On it, as I recall.




Hiroki AH6CY
14:26
Right.




Eric 4Z1UG
14:27
So what happened after that, Hiroki, you get this amateur radio license at 15. Did amateur radio cause you to choose a technical direction for your career and education?




Hiroki AH6CY
14:39
Well, I thought I was headed for the technical field or some science field in college and as a profession, unfortunately in my academic career, I, I couldn't get along with my chemistry teacher in high school and the feeling was mutual. And if you don't do well in chemistry, you cannot get into the college major related to technology or electronics or anything like that. So I ended up going to the social science. I majored in political science in college. So ham radio a state as an avocation, I have always kept the interest in the ham radio and electronics in general throughout my life. My career, which was not, didn't turn out to be in the electronics field. So after high school I went to college, majoring political science in Tokyo.




Hiroki AH6CY
15:45
And then after my undergraduate education in Japan, I came to the US to do graduate work. History and political science was my main interest area. I was going to go back to Japan after obtaining a graduate degrees. Well, I met my future wife and the rest of history. I didn't go back to live in Japan, although I have been to Japan many times, and been back to Japan many times. At the one time I took a group of college students, my students, through Japan for half a year stay. Now while I was working, I was a college student and started, and the graduate work and the started teaching in American universities. I kept interest in ham radio. I kept my license alive both in Japan and in the US. But I was not active on the air.




Hiroki AH6CY
16:58
I was just too busy in my work. So even though I had actually, I always had the operating ham station, even though I was not on the air much. But my rejuvenated ham activity started when I retired in the year 2000. Then I became really active in all manners of m radio activities.




Eric 4Z1UG
17:30
And where are you now? Where's the QTH?




Hiroki AH6CY
17:33
I am in California, near San Francisco, right in the heart of Silicon Valley.




Eric 4Z1UG
17:40
That's like Palo Alto, Menlo park in.




Hiroki AH6CY
17:43
A town called Portola Valley next to Palo Alto. And every Friday afternoon these days I get together with my QRP buddies and operate in a public park in Palo Alto, right on the San Francisco Bay. And QRP is one of several major areas of ham activities I enjoy very much. Now getting back to my sort of brief biography, I taught in American universities, several universities for 20 years after I finished graduate school. But then I actually got into the electronic industry, mostly in marketing and sales capacity. So I traveled to all the Asian and the Pacific Rim countries, Japan, Korea, China, Taiwan, Singapore, India, Australia, Indonesia, etcetera, selling American products. Selling American products.




Eric 4Z1UG
18:58
If you were in California, you were there as the Silicon Valley is rising.




Hiroki AH6CY
19:03
Yes. I didn't know at the time. I arrived in Silicon Valley just as the so called Silicon Valley Revolution was starting. And there were still unbelievably, the orchards, the apple orchards, some agricultural land in what is today Silicon Valley. At that time, it was very fast. It was changing very fast into the electronic industry location.




Eric 4Z1UG
19:33
Fairchild and Hewlett Packard and Stanford University were the mainstays of the valley in those days.




Hiroki AH6CY
19:39
Yes. Yeah. The Silicon Valley actually had a very good environment where what has become known as Silicon Valley wasn't known as such then, but combination of the major academic universities, such as Stanford University of California, Berkeley, and then it was a financial center. It still is San Francisco Financial center. And then the availability of labor force and the land and water. These factors are very important, major factors to start electronic industry was here. So it was not really an accident. It was no accident that Silicon Valley has become a Silicon Valley.




Eric 4Z1UG
20:30
The confluence of all of these resources made it ideal for what it eventually became.




Hiroki AH6CY
20:38
Yes.




Eric 4Z1UG
20:39
I remember as a kid the Silicon Valley was orchards. I have a good friend that grew up in San Jose and remembers it being a hick town, and it's far from that now. So when you were traveling around the far east, what company were you representing and what were you selling?




Hiroki AH6CY
20:57
Well, I have been involved a number of startups, and on startups, as you may know, in Silicon Valley, at least in the early phase of Silicon Valley history, perhaps one out of ten companies that start failed. And that was expected. And we hear all kinds of glorious success stories of a giant company, such as Google or Intel or Apple and such. But underneath that, the glorious, successful companies, there are thousands of failed companies. So I worked for both successful and not so successful companies. It was an exciting time. One of the successful companies I worked for was IOmega. And the IOmega may not be known to a young generation today, but it was unbelievably, it had the actually faster rising stock price than Apple when it was going high. IOmega was the inventor of Zip Drive.




Hiroki AH6CY
22:17
And Zip Drive was the first in the world to produce the affordable, removable storage device, 100 megabytes, essentially about the same size as the floppy drive.




Eric 4Z1UG
22:35
I remember, I think I had an IOmega zip drive.




Hiroki AH6CY
22:39
So we sold millions and, well, I guess probably billions of these items. And so my role was to take the IOmega products into Asia and also locating the manufacturing places in places like Philippines and Malaysia, Thailand and Singapore and Japan.




Eric 4Z1UG
23:09
Israel has the same history. You know, we've got our giants that have risen out of our Silicon Valley. But you're right. For every 20 companies, there was one rising star, and all the rest failed.




Hiroki AH6CY
23:24
Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with the israeli scenes. I have been to Israel many times. My wife's relatives, quite a few of them live in Israel, and some of them are working in the high tech industry in Israel and also in Silicon Valley.




Eric 4Z1UG
23:43
So we learned to fail fast here. Yes, but you know what? What's so interesting about that is without those failures, you don't have all these brilliant people in both valleys that actually create these amazing companies. There's something about business failure that makes you a better businessman.




Hiroki AH6CY
24:02
Yes. As a matter of fact, when were recruiting and when various companies, we always look for people who have failed and succeeded. People who only knew success would not be a great candidate for us because.




Eric 4Z1UG
24:23
They knew how to pick themselves up and start all over again.




Hiroki AH6CY
24:27
Right? It was a really risk taking, high risk taking environment. And if you are the type of people who shy away from risk taking, you are not wanted. Here.




Eric 4Z1UG
24:44
And now, this midshow break, the QSO Today project that now includes 500 episodes of the QSO Today podcast, the curation of hundreds of hours of QSO today virtual Ham expo presentations for public consumption is now supported completely by you, the listeners. I am using a business model called value for value, a concept developed by Adam Curry, K5ACC, where you contribute to QSO today exactly what you think its value is to you. Value for value. This mid show break and the promotion of the Ham Radio Workbench Podcast later in the show are the only commercials that interrupt the program. QSO Today has no commercial sponsors to influence the content, direction, and editorial content of the QSO Today project, which exists solely for the promotion of the amateur radio hobby.




Eric 4Z1UG
25:39
Those of you that have listened to over 500 podcast episodes know that I'm not only infatuated by the amateur radio hobby, but by the people who perpetuate it as well. The hours that I dedicate to QSO today is a half time job. Your support at any level pays for all of the technology that I use to create, produce, host, and deliver the QSO Today podcast and the project to the ham radio community. And while it is a labor of love, it costs money. I know from statistics and surveys that only 6% of you actually contribute to QSO today in some form. Please make a generous donation using the slider to set the amount of your donation. Make that donation monthly to ensure that QSO today is here for the next 500 episodes. As a value for value donation.




Eric 4Z1UG
26:32
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Eric 4Z1UG
27:19
Okay, so you retired in 2000, you've always had your license, but you came back with some new passions. What were those new passions?




Hiroki AH6CY
27:27
Well, of course, like most hams, my earlier interest was the DX. Just reaching the far reaches of the world, especially with the less and less power, rather than more and more power, became my interest. And also because of my background earlier on, I became interested in figuring out, in finding out what kind of communication device the wartime let me back up a little bit. I was three and a half years old when the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.




Hiroki AH6CY
28:16
Living 20 miles from the ground zero meant that our life, my parents, my family's life, and as well as that of my neighbors and friends, were all heavily influenced by what the bomb brought in a devastated city and trying to sort of rebuild the economy and so forth, that war was a daily reminder, even though war itself was over, the consciousness related to war just wouldn't have gone away. One of the such things for me, especially after I became a little interested in radio, as I mentioned earlier when I was in fourth grade, was I wondered what kind of radius the airplane B29 bomber called Enola gay, which dropped the bomb carried. And so that was a part of my consciousness.




Hiroki AH6CY
29:28
And also I was interested in what kind of radio they used in starting the Pacific phase of World War 2, that is, bombing of Pearl Harbor. The Pearl Harbor occurred on, in December 1941. I was born in January, that is a month after Pearl Harbor was attacked. So the, I was interested, I was curious, and although I didn't do anything about it, I couldn't do anything much about it then, what kind of radio they used, and that been in the back of my mind throughout and so when I retired, I became serious about researching these radios. And so that led to my general interest in looking at all the radios used in World War 2, both in european and the pacific theaters. And to make a long story short, after I discovering the.




Hiroki AH6CY
30:38
After learning what kind of radios the B29 bomber Enola gay carried, and also the three seat bomber that dropped the bomb on Pearl Harbor carried, I started looking for actual models, the same model radios. And it turned out that acquiring the wartime radio used by American military establishment was relatively easy. Surplus market was quite open and active.




Eric 4Z1UG
31:16
What did the Americans carry?




Hiroki AH6CY
31:19
Well, this Enola gay carried two major transmitters and auxiliary transceivers. The ARC 13, which is a 100 watt AM and CW, and the MCW, that modulatedCWtransmitter, Enola Gay, carried two ARC 13. One was used to communicate up to 1500 miles, that is, the. To be able to communicate from the skies of Japan to the South Pacific islands, where the American air base were located, specifically Tinian. Tinian was the air base, a little island where this air base was located and where B29 took off for the Japan mission. And the so ARC 13 could transmit efficiently at this distance. They carried the, what is called ARC 5. ARC 5, smaller transmitter and receiver combination, which they used for air to air and then air to the ground, operating tower communication in the short distance communication.




Hiroki AH6CY
32:57
Now, the Enor gay, as I said, carried two ARC 13. One is for communication between the aircraft and the Tinian airbase. But another one, an ARC 13, was to transmit the modulated CW tone. And it was switched on as the last bombing run started in 45 seconds before the bomb was actually dropped. When the signal stopped, that's an indication bomb was released. So all the other B29s were equipped with only one ARC 13, but the Enola Gay itself has two.




Eric 4Z1UG
33:49
And then what were the Japanese using when they bombed Pearl Harbor?




Hiroki AH6CY
33:54
Japanese. The three seater bomber, which the command aircraft and the. It took off, along with many other bombers from the aircraft carrier, from the near Midway area for the harbor attack. And this was, as many of you know, many of the listeners would know, that it was not detected. There was a. Some radar sighting, which was misinterpreted as some kind of a training mission. But anyway, hundreds of aircraft that took off from the aircraft carrier near the Midway. This was a few hundred miles the northwest of Hawaii. They arrived in the skies of Hawaii, unmolested by American defenders. And everybody knows that it successfully made an attack on Pearl Harbor, decimating the American fleet in the Pearl Harbor.




Hiroki AH6CY
35:34
Now, the command aircraft was a three seater bomber, and it carried the transmitter called crew type 96, and it has also 100 watts output, but it is only CW only transmitter. And so the many people have the impression that when the successful attack was conducted, they send a message, Tora Tora Tora.




Eric 4Z1UG
36:04
They made a movie.




Hiroki AH6CY
36:06
Yes, there are many movies and many books are written, but nobody shouted the Tora Tora into a microphone. It didn't have a microphone. It's a CW only transmitter. And so the Tora Tora was actually sent in Japanese Morse Code and to the waiting aircraft carrier near Midway.




Eric 4Z1UG
36:37
Now, you said that the American, like the ARC 5 s and the ARC 13s, that these were actually relatively plentiful in the surplus market. How was it to find a KU-96 or something similar from the Japanese?




Hiroki AH6CY
36:54
Well, it was very difficult to locate the radios used by the Japanese military establishment, because when the general MacArthur came to Japan and as a supreme commander of the occupying Allied forces, he ordered complete destruction of wartime material, not just the tanks and the weapons, but also all the communication devices used by the Japanese military. So this explains why it is very rare to see the surviving the wartime radios. But interesting thing happened to me. I advertised in the Electric Radio Magazine, which some of you may know, some of the listeners may know is a tube radio, specialty magazines. But anyway, I advertise that I'm looking for the Japanese military radios, and I didn't have much hope for it.




Hiroki AH6CY
38:13
But someday, one day, I got a call from someone who lived about 100 miles from me saying that I think I have a Japanese military radio, and I don't know what it is, but come and take a look. So I went there, and they turned out to be exactly the same model as the one used in Pearl Harbor attack. It was a total serendipity. And some of the surviving Japanese military videos of the World War 2 era were actually the radios brought back by American GIs stationed in the South Pacific islands as a souvenir. And this is the reason why a few rare Japanese military radios are found in the US. The other military radio that survived were the ones used right after the war to augment the landline telephone communication.




Hiroki AH6CY
39:33
And these were exceptional radios that were allowed by the MacArthur's occupation regime.




Eric 4Z1UG
39:43
And what was the condition of this radio when you found it?




Hiroki AH6CY
39:47
Mine was surprisingly in good shape. All the tubes were there intact. The only thing missing was a power supply. So I had to build my own power supply to resurrect this radio.




Eric 4Z1UG
40:05
Did you have to rebuild this radio in order to make it look new?




Hiroki AH6CY
40:08
Very little. I cleaned it up, and then I had to build my own power supply to work with this. That's the only thing I did. So the radio itself was miraculously intact. I wouldn't say the same thing with my ARC 13, the transmitter that was on the B29. I had to do a lot of work on that one, but fortunately, the parts were pretty readily available in the Internet. The Internet market has done something great about the, you know, great in terms of looking for all parts and all radios. Even today on the eBay and other Internet market, you do come across the military radios from World War 2 era, both the Japanese and Germans. Not very often, but if you keep looking, you know, some of these old radios do show up.




Eric 4Z1UG
41:20
The tubes that were used in radio sets before World War 2 in America, were they similar to the ones being used in Japan?




Hiroki AH6CY
41:27
Yes.




Eric 4Z1UG
41:28
So are they interchangeable?




Hiroki AH6CY
41:30
Well, some were and some were not. The many of the Japanese tubes were copies of American tubes. The Japanese manufacturers were actually copying many American tubes before World War 2 began. After World War 2 began, the Japanese built their own tubes along with the copies of American tubes. So some tubes are interchangeable, others are not. This tube used in the Pearl Harvard attack, it was made in Japan tube, and it was not manufactured in the US at all. Japanese tubes were the so called ST and also the octal pin tubes, but there were no miniature tubes or sub miniature tubes.




Eric 4Z1UG
42:32
While MacArthur might have destroyed the military radios, the tube manufacturers were still there. And can you find tubes that are compatible with that radio now in Japan?




Hiroki AH6CY
42:44
No. They are very difficult, almost impossible to find.




Eric 4Z1UG
42:49
So this radio, does it get on the air?




Hiroki AH6CY
42:52
Yes, it got on the air just for testing purpose.




Eric 4Z1UG
42:56
It's not a rig that you'll pull out every once while just to make a contact?




Hiroki AH6CY
43:00
No.




Eric 4Z1UG
43:01
Now, it's my understanding, because I've seen articles online, stuff, that you also are very interested in the spy radios that the Allied forces used in Europe during World War 2. I think they call that the paraset.




Hiroki AH6CY
43:15
Yes.




Eric 4Z1UG
43:15
We've had other paraset restorers and builders on the QSO Today podcast. How did you become interested in the paraset then? Did you refocus your interest in energies to the other continent?




Hiroki AH6CY
43:27
Well, as part of my research into wartime radios, I did do a lot of readings and how radios were used. And one of the interesting books I came across as part of my overall historical research was the book called Spy Princess. Spy Princess is the story of a young woman who worked for, as a radio operator, agent for SOE. SOE stands for special operations executive, which is a secret paramilitary organization created by Churchill a year after the european theater of World War 2 began. And after I read that book, Spy Princess, which is, as I said, a young woman who worked as an agent. She was captured by Nazis in Paris and was later sent to concentration camp and was executed. She carried one of the spy radios.




Hiroki AH6CY
44:49
There are several well known spy radios used by SOE and MI6, British intelligence agency during World War 2. And she carried a spy radio called B two. But I also learned after I started digging more into SOE activities, SOE used the simpler, lighter the spy radio called Paraset, which became a sort of a cult radio among the two to replicate Paraset, which because the three tube, relatively simple radio. And it has become a kind of a popular thing to do among some hamsters. Now, I have built three of those and one thing led to another. And so the, I have actually real model of b two in my shack, which I restored. And actually that one I put on the air. It works very well. And Paraset, as I said, I built three replicas.




Hiroki AH6CY
45:58
Parasete is another radio, impossible to find, almost impossible to find in the market. I have seen the real one in several museums in Britain and in european continent. I became especially interested in Paris partially because of the simplicity, but also it used as a final tube, 6V6, the same tube I used in my first homebrew radio when I was 15. So I have a special feeling for this tube. 6V6, five watt tube.




Eric 4Z1UG
46:41
So do you operate the Paraset when you go out on Fridays to do Poda?




Hiroki AH6CY
46:48
Not very often. Occasionally I do that, and I have done that. And I have some interesting QSOs with the Parasete. I also have two cold war era spy radio, American spy radios, and one used during the Vietnam War era, especially in the, in the jungle environment. It's a very interesting case. I can, I can show you one of those.




Eric 4Z1UG
47:29
So we're on a video conference right now, and Hiroki is in his garage showing me his stuff.




Hiroki AH6CY
47:36
I am in my shack, and this is one of the three units. And as you can see, it has, it is completely sealed.




Eric 4Z1UG
47:46
It actually looks like a speaker.




Hiroki AH6CY
47:48
It looks like a speaker.




Eric 4Z1UG
47:50
But, but if you unscrew the case with the thumb screws, this particular spy.




Hiroki AH6CY
47:55
Radio can be dropped from the aircraft. And it has to withstand the enormous.




Eric 4Z1UG
48:05
Stresses of hitting the ground at terminal velocity.




Hiroki AH6CY
48:09
Okay? Yes. And completely steel. This is one of the three units. Transmitter, transmitter, receiver and power supply come in different boxes. Now, around here, this is a gasket and the cover I just took off is attached very tightly. This is totally impervious to water or anything that comes alongside. This was occasionally buried in the mud in Vietnam. So some American military unit or the intelligence unit who had to leave stuff for a few weeks and come back to retrieve it, they buried it in the mud. So I have never seen any other spy radios built in this way. But that's one of the.




Eric 4Z1UG
49:11
So you have the transmitter and the receiver in the power supply. So you have a complete set?




Hiroki AH6CY
49:16
Yes, this is a complete set. When I acquired it, I only had to do a minimal work to make it work. This has been.




Eric 4Z1UG
49:24
Were those like AM and CW?




Hiroki AH6CY
49:26
No, just cw. By the way, one of the common things in all of the spy radios during World War 2 and Cold War era was no spy radio had a speaker.




Eric 4Z1UG
49:41
Well, it makes sense.




Hiroki AH6CY
49:43
Only headphones. Also, with a few exceptions, all of the spy radios has a key built in the most key. Let's see. You may not be able to see this very well. This is a key.




Eric 4Z1UG
50:02
Yeah, it looks like a little button on the bottom.




Hiroki AH6CY
50:04
And the aracet and the other spy radios also have the key built in.




Eric 4Z1UG
50:14
And now this mid show break, every two weeks I listen to the Ham Radio Workbench Podcast with George KJ6VU, Vince VE6LK, Mark N6MTS, Thomas K4SWL, Michael VA3MW and Rod VA3ON, and their guests on often topical and important projects in amateur radio. This discussion amongst the regulars and their guests remind me of the conversations that I used to listen to on 146.94 and 146.46 MHz in Orange County, California while working on my own workbench almost 50 years ago. It is amazing how much practical ham radio knowledge that we can absorb by listening to the Workbench podcast. That starts to make sense when we start our own deep dive into our own projects. So join me by listening to the Ham Radio Workbench Podcast now.




Eric 4Z1UG
51:09
And as George and crew push beyond 200 episodes, you can get to the Ham Radio Workbench Podcast by clicking on the banner in this week's show notes page. And now back to our QSO.




Eric 4Z1UG
51:23
I saw there's a list of Paraset builders. Yes, and you're on the list. There's an organization, a society of.




Hiroki AH6CY
51:32
There was a very active society located in Britain and I was a member and so are some of the hams in european continent and the f sticks. Oops, I can't remember his call sign. Jean Paul Moffet in southern France. And I have been the sort of a volunteer clearinghouse of all the Parasete radios built in and original, and they also built one. So we have been collecting the names of the museums and the hams and non hams who have built the replicas. And unfortunately that British based Parasete organization is not functioning because majority of the members are silent keys. But there's a new paraset group on the interest group based in America, in the USA, and that is still going active. But the members are relatively new.




Hiroki AH6CY
52:59
Many of the people are in sixties and seventies, but unlike the other one I mentioned, headquarters and based in Britain, the members are relatively new, younger.




Eric 4Z1UG
53:13
You were saying that you also restore other rigs and I'm looking over your shoulder and you've got a Collins s line with the amplifier and everything.




Hiroki AH6CY
53:22
Right.




Eric 4Z1UG
53:23
So you've rebuilt the Collins S Line?




Hiroki AH6CY
53:26
Yes, I acquired this s line and some time ago, a few years ago. And the major rework I had to do is naturally I do the old recap, the change the capacitors, but all the components were in good shape and I had to rebuild the power supply of the 30 l one, the amplifier, 500 amplifier, and had some work in the transmitter, but not a whole lot of work was needed.




Eric 4Z1UG
54:05
What's the rig to the left of the amplifier?




Hiroki AH6CY
54:09
This one here, that's actually my main radio. I use the main HF radio, Icom IC-7610. It's a very good radio.




Eric 4Z1UG
54:21
Yes, I understand it is.




Hiroki AH6CY
54:23
I have a whole bunch of homebrew QRP radios. Actually it's all over my shack.




Eric 4Z1UG
54:30
I'll make a reference in the show notes page to an article that you wrote about a potato QRP radio that apparently if you have eight potatoes you can actually run the radio. Could you talk a little bit about how that battery works?




Hiroki AH6CY
54:44
Well, I had an article in April 2022 QST, about the potato radio experiment I did. It started out in a funny way, that one day in my QRP group, Friday outing group, were talking about the batteries and one of the guys said, oh, I have a potato battery, which was a joke. And of course I've never seen potato battery used for ham radio. But it occurred to me, well, many people have an experience of playing the potatoes or bananas as a battery. When they were in the grammar school. It occurred to me, maybe there's something interesting about the vegetable batteries. So I started doing some research and I came across a very interesting article written by a professor at Hebrew University.




Hiroki AH6CY
55:54
And he was, and he and his team discovered that when you boil potatoes your battery output goes upward of ten times output so that really made me think, well, if you can, you know, get the much higher current, maybe there's a way to use it for the ham radio, for QRPP. That is one milliwatt plus of transmitter and the receiver. So I got serious. And the potato, by the way, potatoes. And as well as the bananas and the avocado and all the other vegetables and fruits I have tested, usually produce 0.5 to a little over 1 volt. Some potatoes now, but the current is minuscule micro ampere and the. But by boiling the potatoes, I actually use the mashed potatoes and boiled potatoes and so forth.




Hiroki AH6CY
57:16
You can actually, from each large potatoes, russet potatoes you get, you can get about a five milliamp 1 volt. Okay, so you can imagine if you can get five milliamp 1 volt. If you have five or six potatoes. Now you are talking. You can actually power the QRPP radio. And so I look for the transistors that can work in low voltage. So here's one of the QRPP transceiver I built.




Eric 4Z1UG
58:02
You're holding up your QRPP transceiver now. I saw that you made that with a Pixi.




Hiroki AH6CY
58:07
Yeah. And inside is a Pixie transceiver was originally developed in 1990s by Northern California QRP club. And it has the three transistors. Now today, this so called Pixie radio was manufactured by a number of people in China. And you can buy them for anywhere from the US dollars. Three. Now Pixie uses so called the 386 audio amp, which doesn't work over unless you put in nine to twelve volt. Now the potatoes even. Of course, theoretically you can use nine volt, twelve volt. But this audio amp consumes so much current, so much that is by a QRPP standard, that I replaced the audio amp with the different transistor, which requires much less current, lower voltage. So the modified Pixie radio is inside. I took off the whatever is not needed, such as piezo sounder, to make theCWside tone I took it out to.




Hiroki AH6CY
59:46
So this QRPP radio can produce about the three milliwatts output.




Eric 4Z1UG
59:55
Have you worked anybody with it?




Hiroki AH6CY
59:57
Yes, with my QRP club members I have done the experiment. I can reliably communicate up to 3.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:00:05
Miles with the potatoes in series with.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:00:08
A very simple vertical antenna. So if you use the big three, four elements, yagi, with this, especially in a good condition like today, probably you can reach, I wouldn't be surprised, a few hundred miles.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:00:30
What electrodes do you use in the potato?




Hiroki AH6CY
01:00:32
Zinc and copper of plates strategically put.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:00:36
Into the boiled potato. And then when you're all done, you pull the plates out and you mash them up and you have.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:00:43
Yes, I mash up and put it in a nice plastic box so you can, you know, come up with all kinds of original ideas how to store potato batteries.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:00:56
So how much operating time does that give you?




Hiroki AH6CY
01:01:00
You know, unbelievable. I don't know. The reason why I don't know is I didn't use it long enough as an experiment, but the potato batteries last a long time. And even though, you know, potatoes, boiled potatoes start deteriorating, getting rotten. Even after they get rotten, they produce the electricity. So the, in one of the experiments I did with the potatoes, after one month after I boiled them, they were still going, oh, amazing.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:01:38
And I just bought a 7000 watt generator for the war here. And I could have just bought a whole bucket full of potatoes for my emergency radio system.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:01:48
Right. And as I said, it's not just potatoes. Any fruit?




Eric 4Z1UG
01:01:54
Tomatoes, bananas.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:01:56
Yeah.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:01:57
Oranges have a lot of acid in them.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:02:00
Yes. And also, I haven't quite, you know, there's endless experiment one can run. You know, you can add some chemicals.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:02:09
Then you could need them at the end or feed them to the goats.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:02:14
Right. Well, I am banned from my kitchen by my wife now because the, I was banned from boiling many potatoes in the kitchen because I was making a big mess. But anyway, it was a fun project and I hope people continue to experiment because there's, I think, practical application in some of the developing areas, you know, in, like in some poor villages in Africa where there still is no electricity and yet you need to communicate from one village to another. It is not totally out of question to have the transmitter and transceiver powered by fruit and vegetables, maybe even a.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:03:15
Paraset, it would have to be a QRP, transistorized Paraset. You might have the idea for a new spy radio.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:03:25
Yeah.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:03:27
Do you think, Hiroki, that projects like this might interest younger people in developing perhaps an interest in these crafts if we're trying to extend the culture of building and. I don't know. I tell my grandson, my father used to tell me, you're not dressed unless you have a knife in your pocket. So I've always carried a pocket knife in my pocket. It must be from his generation. I say this to my grandson as well, although it seems to me that he also has to learn how to use it. But do you think that this interest in the parasets and the potato radios, do you think that we can ignite some imagination in younger people to become interested in ham radio from this?




Hiroki AH6CY
01:04:10
Well, I think we can. However, it is a little more complicated today because there are so many things that can distract young people from this sort of activities. You know, video games, all kinds of tv programs. So you are competing with many other things. Having said that, though, I think it is incumbent upon the parents and teachers to give an opportunity for the kids to play with the knives and the crafts and certainly potatoes and bananas. These things are easily available and can be handled, introduced to us, you know, fun project. And the lighting, the little led with the potatoes offers a fun to the, at least, if not all the kids, but some of the kids. So you never know unless you try to introduce these.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:05:20
There's a very strong maker movement or maker groups in the Silicon Valley there.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:05:26
Yes, indeed.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:05:28
Have you taken any of the parasets or even the potato radio to a maker's fair to show it off?




Hiroki AH6CY
01:05:34
No, I haven't done that yet. But, you know, I have been in touch with the Potato Grower's Association in Idaho. Well, and it's not going anywhere now. You know, maybe that's not a right organization to work with. I think there are ways to do it. You know, it is. It takes parents and teachers to work up the, to use the imagination to do some fun projects.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:06:04
I think that's true. What excites you the most now the sunspot cycle is up. You've got obviously a beautiful set of radios, and you love QRP. What excites you the most now about amateur radio?




Hiroki AH6CY
01:06:18
I have been experimenting with all kinds of antennas, outdoor antennas, and because I live now in the antenna restricted area. And so my one year activities, primarily outdoors, fortunately, I live in a very good climate in northern California. We have more sunny days and than not. And so the, as I mentioned, every Friday afternoon I get together with a small group of people interested in QRP's and operate in the San Francisco Bay public park. And so in the past few years, I have been experimenting with all kinds of portable antennas. So I have built all manners of vertical antennas and magnetic loop antennas. And in the past few months, especially, I have been working with the full size delta loop antenna that is attached to the back of my car.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:07:26
So that means you put up a pole about 10 meters and you hang the delta loop on that.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:07:32
Actually, my latest concoction, my creation, is the four band delta loop.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:07:40
Really?




Hiroki AH6CY
01:07:41
Yes. It is a telescopic fiberglass. It has two elements.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:07:48
You're holding it up in two places. So you got two poles.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:07:51
Yes, two places and attached to the back of my car. And I run the wire. So three wires, one cut 20 meters. And that also works very well for ten meter and then 17 and 15. So there are three wires, three loops.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:08:13
Hanging from those two poles.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:08:15
Yeah, exactly. And buy the telescopic fiberglass on both sides and then hang with it, with the bungee cords, small bungee cords for the listeners.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:08:32
He's showing a picture which I hope he'll send me, and I can put it in the show notes. Okay. So are you using the fiberglass fishing poles for this, or did you actually buy some kind of push up mass, like from DX engineering or something?




Hiroki AH6CY
01:08:47
Pactenna. Pactena used to produce, I don't know what they still do, but at least they used to tell the telescopic fiberglass, which is very much like the, you know, clap ear, the telescopic, the fishing pole. There's no reason why you can't use a fishing pole.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:09:11
They'll go up at least 6 meters.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:09:14
Right. It's very light. And the, I like the fact that actually it bends. That makes, it gives a tension to keep the wire straight. And the, actually, I'm almost finished with writing the article about this particular four band delta loop.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:09:36
The delta loop, the radiation pattern is perpendicular to the loop itself. Right. So it's going to go right off the back of your car.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:09:44
Yes.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:09:45
So you just point your car across the bay.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:09:47
Right. And the delta loop is, this delta loop I have built, has been, is the most efficient antenna, portable antenna I have built, among many kinds of antennas I have built. It's big, of course, but by attaching it to the back of my car, I have a kind of nice base.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:10:14
Would you say this is your favorite antenna now for portable operation?




Hiroki AH6CY
01:10:18
So far, yes. And the, actually, I'm hoping to be able to make it. This is a sort of single element for each fan, but I want to make it two elements or possibly even three elements using my car's body.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:10:36
So you're making a delta loop beam.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:10:39
Right. That's what, that's my next project. It requires a lot of mechanical sort of trial and error.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:10:48
Hiroki, before we finish, do you have advice that you'd give to new or returning hams to the hobby?




Hiroki AH6CY
01:10:56
You know, my advice would be just stay low key. You don't have to have a giant antenna. You don't have to have, you know, fancy equipment, but you can still enjoy ham radio. And this is, you know, just stay low key and try to, you know, enjoy what it can do. I don't know whether that be appropriate advice for everybody, but that's how I have maintained my interest. As I mentioned earlier while I was working hard that I didn't have much time, much on the air time, but I have kept the interest throughout my life. It has been a true vocation. It has never been my vocation. I have never made money from ham radio activities and I have spent money, but I have kept it alive since I was a kid.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:12:05
So and I think that's amazing. Hiroki. This was such an amazing opportunity for me to speak to you and to talk to you about the things that interest you in ham radio. I've really enjoyed this. I know this will be a very successful episode 500 of the QSO Today podcast. With that, I want to thank you so much and wish you 73 thanks.




Hiroki AH6CY
01:12:29
You very much for inviting me. I feel honored that I am the 500th interviewee on your program. Stay well. 73 this is a 86 cy that.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:12:44
Concludes this episode of QSO today. I hope that you enjoyed this QSO with Hiroki. Please be sure to check out the show notes that include links and information about the topics that we discussed. Go to www.qsotoday.com and put an AH6CY in the search box at the top of the page. You can sponsor the transcription of this episode or any of the previous episodes by clicking on the transcription button on every show notes page. The cost is $75 per episode, regardless of the length. We will quickly transcribe the episode and give you credit for your sponsorship. Please send us the call sign of the podcast to make sure that we transcribe what you want. Remember that QSO today is value for value. Please support our project by making a donation or becoming a listener sponsor today.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:13:34
Use our Amazon link before shopping at Amazon as we receive a small commission on your Amazon purchases. Subscribe to our mailing lists, both my blog and the podcast, and forward the messages to friends and family who would enjoy QSO today content. Promote us on social media and give us a five star rating and reviews whenever you are asked. QSO Today is available on every podcast, player and venue, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, and podcasting 2.0. Get a podcasting 2.0 player to make it easy to get your next episode as soon as we publish. My thanks to Ben Bresky, who as the consummate artist, makes this host and his guests always sound brilliant. Ben also publishes a weekly jewish history podcast. There is a link to that on the QSO today homepage. Until next time, this is Eric 4Z1UG 73.




Eric 4Z1UG
01:14:31


The QSO Today podcast is a product of KEG Media, Inc. Who is solely responsible for its content.

My English speaking amateur radio friends in Israel have asked me to invite you to speak with us on DMR and Allstar. Click on the banner in this week's show notes page or on the talk group menu item at the top of our qsotoday.com web page for more information. Dr.
Jonathan Kramer W6JLK transitioned into becoming a communications law attorney after a successful career in cable television engineering. In addition to his amateur radio activities, Kramer stressed that amateurs should be very active in local government as a way to advocate for antenna and tower rights, especially in areas of strong HOA controls. W6JLK and I discuss the first Motorola simulcast radio system in Kern County, California, years ago and his use of ardent and portable radios for integrating ham radio into public service.
W6JLK, this is Eric 4Z1UG. Are you there?



Jonathan W6JLK
02:29
Jonathan, this is W6JLK. Yes, I am here, Eric.






Eric 4Z1UG
02:34
Jonathan, thanks for joining me at the QSO Today podcast. Can we start at the beginning of your ham radio story? When and how did it start for you?






Jonathan W6JLK
02:42
Not surprisingly, I came out of junior high school with an interest in CB radio. In fact, we had a family CB license that caught my interest in two way, and when I went to Hamilton High School here in Los Angeles, where I'm based, I immediately joined the radio club there, K6CXI, headed by the wonderful Jack Brown. It was there in. Gosh, I've got to check my notes here because I got notes on the dates, November 20, 1970, that I earned my novice ticket. I was tested by someone, I think you know, Mark Abrams, WA6DPB, and he was my very first contact. So that was the beginning of my ham story. I went from there, oh, about a year and a half later, I earned my general license.
Jonathan W6JLK
03:31
About the same time, 1971, I joined the ARRL, and within about a year I upgraded to a life member. One of the best investments I ever made.






Eric 4Z1UG
03:42
If you know anything about the ARRL, I think. What is it? The membership, even in those days was maybe, what, $35 a year or something like that?






Jonathan W6JLK
03:50
That's right. But life membership was about $180 and.






Eric 4Z1UG
03:53
Now it's over $1,000. I think.






Jonathan W6JLK
03:56
Like I said, it was one of the best things I ever did. In fact, my father paid for that.






Eric 4Z1UG
04:02
You've used $180 worth of paper in all those years?






Jonathan W6JLK
04:06
Well, not only was it a good deal, but being there and supporting amateur radio through the league has been one of the things I've been very proud of as well. And I've had a number of contacts with the league. Currently I'm a volunteer examiner. I'm also a volunteer counsel in the southwest division. I hope to get him back a bit as well.






Eric 4Z1UG
04:27
Just a note about Mark Abrams, WA6DPB. I actually met Mark in 1974 because he was very good friends with Martin Ronnie, WB6YMI and Skip Hansen, WB6YMH. I'm assuming that we probably all know the same guys.



Jonathan W6JLK
04:44
We do.



Eric 4Z1UG
04:45
And I remember at the time that mark was building a remote base station using TTL and relay logic on green perf board. I still see it burned in the front of my brain. But he was one of the guys that interested me in remote base stations and all the remote control stuff that was going on in those days. And so that's very interesting that our Venn diagrams cross in that way. But let me just go back a little bit. It seems to me that if your family was an interest in citizens band radio and then you kind of jumped to novice in 1970, did you have an interest and earlier interest in electronics and communications even before you got the amateur radio license?



Jonathan W6JLK
05:24
My graduation project from elementary school here, the 6th grade at the time, was that I built a crystal radio and I gave a lecture to my entire 6th grade class on the history of radio, not the commercial side, but the actual broadcasting side. So yes, my interest in radio went back many years before I became a CB radio operator, and then later a ham radio operator.



Eric 4Z1UG
05:51
And did your crystal radio have a germanium diode, or did it have a cat's whisker?






Jonathan W6JLK
05:55
No, I had a 1N34 diode. And because the school that I went to, Clover Avenue, was actually very close to KDAY AM, that was the only station I could pick up because everything else was overwhelmed by that one strong signal. But it was a crystal radio. It worked, and it was a great project. And I cannot tell you why, but for all of my life, I have been intrigued, enlightened, enraptured by radio, by two way radio, by one way radio, by the electronics of radio.



Eric 4Z1UG
06:33
I get that 100%. I'm sure that all of the listeners also get that as well. Okay, so what happened after that? You got your amateur radio license. You're a life member of the awrl. Did you continue with radio clubs and stuff like that in high school?



Jonathan W6JLK
06:47
Well, in high school, I was really involved in the K6CXI club. That was the Hamilton high school radio club. And that's where really I spent the majority of my time. But my next contact between amateur radio and education came for college. And I will tell you that I was a straight C student in high school. And I mean straight C, because it did not interest me except for radio. And I excelled in the radio electronics courses. But when it came time to go to college, I didn't have really great grades to get in, but I ended up going to Cal State Northridge anyway. And the way I got in was fascinating because my grades didn't qualify me to go in the front door, as it were.



Jonathan W6JLK
07:36
I went around the side door and said, listen, I think I really do qualify to be here, and I can demonstrate that I can do this level of work. And I was actually interviewed by an admissions officer who looked at my very short list of credits. He said, ham radio. I said, ham radio. And he said, that's a federal thing, right? Yes. I had to take federal tests, and by this time, I'd already tested to be a general. Said, well, you know what? I'm going to let you into Cal State Northridge, because I feel like anyone who could pass these federal tests will do fine at Cal State Northridge. So it's because of my ham radio license that I got into Cal State Northridge.



Eric 4Z1UG
08:17
That's amazing. We should say. By the way, the hometown was what? Los Angeles, right?



Jonathan W6JLK
08:21
Correct. Born and raised in Los Angeles, west.



Eric 4Z1UG
08:24
LA, because I think you mentioned to me, Chevy at hills.



Jonathan W6JLK
08:27
Well, actually, I grew up in west side, I went to Clover Avenue Elementary School, then Palms junior, and then Hamilton High School. So I was kind of a little bit west of Chevy at hills.



Eric 4Z1UG
08:39
Okay. So I know the area. I actually spent some time there as a kid myself and even as a young adult. Okay, well that's very cool. So you got into Cal State Northridge and what did you major in there?



Jonathan W6JLK
08:50
I majored in hating it, just did not like being there. I spent about a year and a half there. And as has been the case many times in my life, I took the road less traveled and I left Cal State Northridge and went from a four year university to a two year college. I went to LA trade tech because LA trade tech had a splendid, just a renowned radio telecommunications program.
So I left Northridge, enrolled in La trade tech, went through it, was on Dean's list every semester. At my last semester, Motorola, which was a sponsor of the radio communications program at that point, traditionally picked the top two students in that program and pulled them into Motorola. And I was one of the top two. So I was actually hired by Motorola out of La trade tech even before I graduated.



Jonathan W6JLK
09:47
And that began my first career position. I was hired by area F program management and worked on fascinating projects. The first simulcast systems, big microwave systems, public safety communications. It's the type of thing where I got to play with stuff that normally if you worked at a MSS, you'd spend five or ten years before you got to play with that stuff.



Eric 4Z1UG
10:14
Right. I think the people that I knew that played with that stuff early worked for the public safety, like in Orange County communications or something like that. Right. And those are rare positions in those days they were.



Jonathan W6JLK
10:27
And I helped build the first simulcast system, which was in Kern County, California. It had to cover about 8800 sq. Mi. And we had multiple sites. We had a very early solar only site. Now we're talking late 70s ring microwaves and phased audio. It was just an amazing network to really learn on. And I was responsible for the dispatch centers, keeping the dispatch centers running. They were using PDP11-35 computers to do computer aided dispatch. We had the Modats which were the first level or the first generation digital radios for sending digital IDs. Every time you'd key down it would send a digital ID so it would pop up on the dispatcher's display who was calling and their status. Cool.
Eric 4Z1UG
11:18
The mic, or control head as I recall, had Modat status buttons on it.



Jonathan W6JLK
11:22
That's correct.



Eric 4Z1UG
11:23
Very interesting. Well, I remember at that time must have been the late 70s when Orange county communications bought their 1st 800 MHz analog repeater and the speculation was, well, how could that even work? It's microwave frequency. It won't have any range. It's not going to work. Surprisingly, it worked quite well.



Jonathan W6JLK
11:41
It worked quite well. And it was part of the evolution of frequency for bandwidth. And bandwidth was necessary for a whole lot of things, not the least of which was there were so few users at the time up in that spectrum that you had a lot of room to move around and try out different things and modulations and bandwidths. And it was just really neat stuff. And because the systems were really sold before they were understood. When I worked at Motorola and were doing the first simulcast system, were literally inventing things on the fly and pulling together products from other pieces that Motorola had to make this thing work. So the system was sold and then Motorola figured out how to actually make it work. So were, oh, gosh, doing incredible things.



Jonathan W6JLK
12:32
And I remember that the manager at the time, I always remember this, he had a roll of butcher paper on a reel like you walk into a deli and they'd pull off the butcher paper and he had that on the side of his desk and he would literally pull off a piece of paper and start scribbling designs and rip off the paper. And then it would go off to the engineers to actually build. That's the kind of work that were doing. It was not just plug this into this, plug this into that, turn this on. We were actually making things work. And it was really amazing. It was just an amazing time to be in radio.
Eric 4Z1UG
13:12
Motorola is way ahead of like General Electric and Ef Johnson and all of those other companies, right? I mean, I don't recall that there was any innovation that was coming out of those companies the way that Motorola was doing it in those days.



Jonathan W6JLK
13:25
Well, Motorola was ahead of Motorola at the time because again, they would sell things and then it would be the area people who would actually make it all work. So that was a heck of a lot of fun because we really were given tremendous range. We really could reach through anywhere in the company to get what we needed to support our first client because this was the first system, this was the first simulcast. So it was a demonstration project to show the world that Motorola could make all of this work. And we did, and it was just an amazing time to pull pieces together and make it work.



Eric 4Z1UG
14:04
Well, Kern county in California isn't the largest. I think Riverside county is the largest county, San Bernardino County, Kern county is not the largest, but it's a huge county, but it was also, as I recall, it's desert and mountains. So it was a very difficult place to cover. Right.



Jonathan W6JLK
14:19
San Bernardino is the largest county. Kern County, I believe, is the second largest county. And yes, it has 8000 foot mountains. It has desert. It really has all sorts of topography. It's the southern portion of the Central Valley. And the way the simulcast system was designed to operate is you could be anywhere in the county with a handheld and have full communications. And that meant you'd be listening to multiple repeaters which meant that those multiple repeaters had to be synced within a cycle of each other. We used to go up to the mountaintops and adjust the high stability oscillators. There was one site called Bird Springs where we would drive out three and a half hours, 4 hours to get to the site to do about 15 minutes work and then drive back to Bakersfield.






Jonathan W6JLK
15:10
But that system worked and it provided the coverage and it was exactly what the county sheriffs and the county fire department needed.



Eric 4Z1UG
15:19
So explain just for a second how simulcast works for the audience that probably we're way beyond that now because were so channel diverse with what we use. But explain a little bit about simulcast.



Jonathan W6JLK
15:31
The simulcast back in those days was analog. But basically you would have multiple transmitters all keyed up at the same time.



Eric 4Z1UG
15:40
On the same frequency.



Jonathan W6JLK
15:41
On the same frequency? On the same frequency. So what would happen is you would have to have all of those transmitters locked as to frequency and as to audio phase. There was a twofer here. You had to not only frequency lock them, but you had to phase lock them for the audio so that a receiver, a handheld receiver, might be listening to two or three different sites at the same time. But getting the same audio in the same phase at the same time would narrate a beat because the frequencies were so well locked together. Each of the high stability oscillators actually had an oven built in to keep the crystal source or the frequency source at the same temperature regardless of the ambient temperature.






Jonathan W6JLK
16:25
And it was essentially a way of providing wide area coverage without having to change from going to peak A to peak B to peak C as you travel through the county.



Eric 4Z1UG
16:35
Right. And that technology ended up being used later for wide area paging. And it was even more complicated, I think, with paging because at a certain point they started being able to connect those paging transmitters with satellite links. So now you had a time distance from satellite links and the phase and the frequency locking.



Jonathan W6JLK
16:53
Yeah, you're talking about the Skytel network. That was one of the first networks.



Eric 4Z1UG
16:57
Out there, or Pagenet, for example, Pagenet, Skytel.



Jonathan W6JLK
17:02
They were basically, exactly. It was basically satellite uplink, downlink to a primary location.



Eric 4Z1UG
17:10
So you're working for Motorola, and you're on this cutting edge of everything that's interesting about radio. What happened after that?






Jonathan W6JLK
17:17
Well, one of the downsides of working for Motorola at that point was I was living with some friends in a big house in Malibu, and I'd get a call Friday night saying, on Monday, go to New Mexico. On Monday, go to Nevada. On Monday, go to Northern California, wherever the projects were that they needed help on. And there's a young man in his 20s that was like, oh, this is all nice, but I'm not sure I like all this travel. So I started looking around for a job, and I went to the two obvious employers in Malibu, the phone company being one general telephone. I took their admissions or their aptitude tests, and I got great scores on that. At the same time, I also walked into the cable TV company, Malibu Warner Cable, and I said, are you looking for a technician?



Jonathan W6JLK
18:07
And they said, we're looking for a chief tech. I said, what's a chief tech do? And they said, runs the system. I said, well, I don't know anything about cable TV, but I have a strong two way background. And then they asked the key question, do you have a license? And by this time, I had not only picked up my amateur radio licenses, but along the way, working at, well, going through LA trade tech, I picked up my third class, then my second class radio telephone. And while I was working for Motorola in Bakersfield, I took the first class exam, first class radio telephone exam. So when I walked into the cable office in Malibu, and they said, do you have a license? And I said, yes, I was hired on the spot because they had a microwave link and nobody assigned the logbook.



Jonathan W6JLK
18:52
So by virtue of the ticket, I had a job. And this is a recurring story in my life, and something I always tell people. Yet every piece of paper you can, every license you have distinguishes you from someone who won't make the effort to get the license. There have been license. I've never gotten a license that I needed at that very moment, except for my driver's license. And there's never been a license that I didn't use because I had it. So I'm a strong advocate in getting licenses, and amateur radio is certainly the foundation license for me from which everything else grew. So I walked into the cable office, they hired me. I ended up running the system.






Jonathan W6JLK
19:38
I didn't know anything about cable TV topology, but I knew about cable TV technology because instead of shoving a signal into antenna, I shoved a signal into a piece of cable. So from that standpoint, it was very straightforward. And I ended up being the system engineer in Malibu for a couple of years. And I went over from there to be. I worked for a contractor for a while, cable contractor building cable systems. And then I was hired to be the chief technician of the cable system in south Orange county because they had trouble.



Eric 4Z1UG
20:13
Which system in south Orange county?



Jonathan W6JLK
20:14
It was the old storer system in south county. And that system was experiencing a tremendous amount of signal. Basically, their pay channels were in the Midband and they were unusable because there was so much ingress and so much leakage. And this I knew. I knew about this because I knew how to track down this stuff. And I went in and I identified the problem, which was that the connectors that they were using, the hardline connectors they were using were.



Eric 4Z1UG
20:45
Eric, you may know this from the old substandard.



Jonathan W6JLK
20:49
Well, they were feed through connectors, okay? They weren't cord connectors. And that allowed for leakage. So I went to my manager and I said, what's our capital budget for buying new connectors? And he said, capital budget? I'm sorry, what does that term mean? I said, okay, what's our repair and maintenance budget? Well, we can order $500 worth of connectors. That is fine. I said, thank you. I called up my friendly salesman from a company I liked, and I said, I need you to cut me orders for $499 each. And we're going to scam the system at sewer cable. And we did. And I brought the service level service calls down from about 9% a month to under 3%. And I really had a heck of a lot of fun. But because I understood transmission technology from all this previous experience, it was straightforward.



Jonathan W6JLK
21:41
And leakage was something that I knew. In fact, I'll tell you an interesting story going back a little bit. When I was in Malibu. The head end site in Malibu was on a place called Saddle Peak.



Eric 4Z1UG
21:53
Sure.



Jonathan W6JLK
21:54
Saddle Peak also has, or had at least at that .1 of the primary lax FAA sites.



Eric 4Z1UG
22:02
There's also a Nike missile site up there, too.



Jonathan W6JLK
22:05
Pretty close.



Eric 4Z1UG
22:06
Pretty close. Not on the same hill, but. Right close.



Jonathan W6JLK
22:09
Right. In fact, that Nike site you're talking about is commonly used for field aid now. But that's a separate story. Anyway, so I got a call from the FAA saying, we're getting bombed out at Saddle peak. Is it your head end equipment? I said, no, I'm sure it's not. And I went up there with a spectrum analyzer and I identified that the actual interference was coming from a ham repeater on the same peak. So I called the owner of the repeater. I said, you have a problem, and I'm telling you this before you're going to get a call or a visit from the FAA and the FCC. That repeater went off the air. I got a nice thank you letter from the FAA, which I still have to this day.



Eric 4Z1UG
22:48
Did that repeater go back on the.



Jonathan W6JLK
22:50
Air once they put a filter on the output? They did.



Eric 4Z1UG
22:53
Let me ask a question. Did your Malibu cable television, did it have local origination? Did you have a studio in your Malibu office there? Because I remember in those days, like teleprompter cable in Newport beach had even a live news show every afternoon from their tiny office in Newport beach.



Jonathan W6JLK
23:10
We didn't have local origination. What we did was there was one guy who had a local FM station who fit it in, basically an FM modulator who fed it into the system. So we didn't have video. We only had FM origination at the time. But this is the late seventy s, nineteen eighty. It was really before all the local origination was the rage in small systems. This was before the cable wars era. This was kind of the beginning of the cable wars.



Eric 4Z1UG
23:39
Yes. I was involved as a studio guy in cable vision in Newport beach, teleprompter cable in Newport beach. So I ran the cameras or I ran the production switcher if they needed volunteers. We were never paid for any of this stuff, but it was a chance to kind of get your hands on television production.



Jonathan W6JLK
23:56
So I'll tell you a fun story that ties back to store of cable, which was I was hired as the engineer in the South Orange county system because of what I did in that system. I was promoted to be the regional engineer. And based out of Anaheim, I was responsible for all the cable TV technical operations from basically south Orange county out to the desert up to Kern county. And as the regional technical manager, we did have a major origination studio at the Anaheim office where I worked out of. And the manager of that system just hated origination. So he looked at me and he said, that's yours. So here I am, the technical, the regional engineer, and I'm responsible for local origination for that cable TV system.



Jonathan W6JLK
24:41
So it's amazing how if you limit yourself to the job you're doing, you'll never have the jobs and the exposure to the other things. And again, I think I've been very lucky to be at the right place at the wrong time or the wrong place at the right time, depending on your point of view, but it sure has been a heck of a lot of fun.



Eric 4Z1UG
25:01
And now this break. The QSO Today project that includes this podcast and the QSO Today Academy is now listener sponsored. There are no commercial sponsors to influence the content and opinions expressed on QSO today, including my blog posts. Disclaimer we did not have a problem with sponsor influence when we did have commercial sponsors. The world is different now. I believe that commercial sponsorship, where you watch and listen to TV, radio, YouTube, Facebook, and X for free, does give sponsors complete control over all that you see and hear. The largest networks are now dominated by international corporations who decide in their boardrooms what we hear, know about how we vote, and what we buy. Commercial sponsorship models for podcasts don't work, maybe for good reasons.



Eric 4Z1UG
25:52
At QSO today, we are back to blogging and podcasting for the free expression of ideas, discussion, and the dissemination of content. Without commercial sponsorship, it takes everyone's ideas and approaches in our discussions to formulate our own way with the best information available. This has always been the best formula for success, even in ham radio. So QSO today is now value for value. Following the model created by another ham, Adam Curry, K five AAC inventor of podcasting and the value for value business model, I create valuable amateur radio content that you consume. In return, you find it valuable. Then you reward the podcast with your sponsorships, donations, transcription sponsorships, and using the QSO today Amazon link. Your supporting the podcast in this way keeps QSO Today podcasts coming to you every week since July of 2014, now approaching 500 episodes.



Eric 4Z1UG
26:51
In addition, we have over 500 educational ham radio videos from previous QSO Today virtual Ham expos that we also publish to allow every ham to benefit from these excellent presentations. However, all of this content has to be produced, edited, curated, and hosted on commercial platforms by me and my team to keep it easily accessible and available to you. Links and banners on the show notes pages allow you to show your support of the QSO Today project. Please support QSO today with your sponsorships, donations, and using our Amazon links. And now back to our QSO today.



Eric 4Z1UG
27:29
It was a great time because obviously we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have YouTube to create original video productions. This was kind of a time of community access channel and your neighbors deciding that they wanted to do a show on cooking or fashion or something like that. It was a lot of fun. I think it was required, wasn't it part of a city franchise is often required, at least in some of the systems I ran in the Midwest in the 90s, we had to create original programming in the community as part of our license to work in the city.



Jonathan W6JLK
28:00
In fact, in south Orange county, that was a requirement. And in one of the subsystems in south Orange county, they had a requirement to have a message board system, and they didn't have the equipment. They didn't have anything. So I bought a Vic 20 and programmed it in basic and then shoved the video output into a modulator and created a bulletin board channel. Because that's what you did. That's what you did. An old Vic 20. Oh, gosh.



Eric 4Z1UG
28:26
So what happened after that? And what were you doing with amateur radio this whole time?



Jonathan W6JLK
28:30
Perfect transition. So when I was the regional manager for the cable system in Orange County, I also became the president of the South Orange County Amateur Radio Association. Sora and I got corporate sponsorship to go to the ARRL national conference, which that year was in Houston, Texas, because cable TV and amateurs were starting to butt heads about leakage. And since I was the guy who knew about leakage, I was sent off to represent store cable at the ARRL. And of course, I was already a life member, so I was doing a lot in that respect. I got story cable to sponsor a number of the activities of SORA, and that's one of the things that as amateurs, we have the opportunity to do, which is to reach through to our employers and get that sponsorship for amateur radio activities.



Jonathan W6JLK
29:32
I did, and I was very successful, and I was very happy to do it. So that was about that time.






Eric 4Z1UG
29:39
Jonathan, do you think that the association, or maybe the overlap of amateur radio operators working with cable television companies actually made cable television companies, from an engineering standpoint, better, less leakage? And amateur radio operators may be even better in terms of keeping their own equipment clean and functional. The relationship was actually ended up being good and improving both sides.



Jonathan W6JLK
30:04
There are a tremendous number of licensed amateur radio operators in cable TV back then and now, and people who have become really important in terms of the cable TV industry. These are people who started as technicians in various systems, then went up into corporate. So amateur radio has embedded in the cable TV companies and is represented in the national society with the Society of Cable Telecommunications Engineers, which I've been a member for 40 years. Ham radio operators are throughout the cable industry because for the same reason I was, which is this wasn't new to us. We understood transmission. We understood signals, we understood modulation. It was fun. So that's why you see a lot of amateur radio operators who have gone through cable TV systems all the way up to. Absolutely. Senior corporate management in cable systems.



Jonathan W6JLK
30:59
Amateur radio operators are everywhere in the cable TV business, even today.



Eric 4Z1UG
31:04
Right. I believe that I was in the finance side so when I finally got to cable. But what a wonderful industry it was. I don't know whether it still is. I mean, it's probably reviled in a lot of places now because the business models may not work like they used to work, where they were, exclusive franchises and areas.



Jonathan W6JLK
31:22
Unfortunately, there are a lot of appliance operators now, technicians who go out and they're told if the meter says this, do this, as opposed to understanding the reasons why we do these things. So again, that's one of the reasons why you see a lot of the cable TV licensees who are in senior positions in terms of technical management because they're the ones who will do the mentoring, who will say, yeah, you have to understand inner mod is this. It's two signals. It's mixing together, it's plus or minuses and it creates this type of distortion. That's why you see it in the picture. This is the stuff that as a technician I deal with a lot of technicians.



Jonathan W6JLK
32:05
In fact, the next phase of my career after I left store of cable because of merger was I became an inspector of cable TV systems for local governments. From 1984 through about 2006, I inspected hundreds of thousands of miles of plant. So I got to meet a lot of technicians and the technicians who had a technical bent understood what they were doing and the technicians who were trained on. Now turn the meter on, flip it to this position. If the meter goes this far over to the right, then go look at this. And those are the people who sadly, I call them appliance operators because they understand what to look for but not why to look for those appliance operators specifically exclude ham radio operators because we're too damn inquisitive to just take the look at the meter as the answer.



Eric 4Z1UG
33:00
Well, I think that was one of the things that impressed me the most about the hams in southern California, especially the ones that were involved in repeaters and remote base stations and stuff like this, is that they were also mountaintop two way guys. They knew how to carry the spectrum analyzer with them and they knew what intermod products looked like and they could tell you the math and how it works. And there was just this love for solving the problem. And I saw that in my own systems, cable systems with technicians, that they just had this absolute fascination and love for the idea of squirting RF into a cable and seeing what comes out, especially when we started going digital. And I think you see that everywhere. So what caused you to make the transition?



Eric 4Z1UG
33:41
I mean, I'm looking now at your office with certificates on the wall and your hawaiian shirt, so obviously you've moved way beyond.






Jonathan W6JLK
33:49
I have to interrupt you. I'm sorry. I have a sister who passed recently, but she lived in Hawaii. And these are not Hawaiian shirts. These are aloha shirts. Please do not offend Hawaiians by calling these Hawaiian shirts. These are aloha shirts.



Eric 4Z1UG
34:05
So you're wearing aloha shirts and you have a bunch of certificates on the wall, which means you've kind of made a transition from engineer technician to something else. So what was that transition, and how did you make that?



Jonathan W6JLK
34:16
Well, I'm going to take a stop along the way before I get there because I think there's something important to talk about, which is that because of my technical background, I was selected to represent some of the national organizations, the National League of Cities, National association of Telecommunications Officers and advisors, US Conference of mayors back in the late 80s, when in fact, the FCC said, look, the technical specifications for cable TV are inadequate. Now, we can impose them, or you governments and you industry can work together and come up with some recommendations. And I co chaired the government side committee that worked with the cable industry to come up with national technical standards, which, in fact, are still on the FCC's books today.



Jonathan W6JLK
35:02
And because of that, I was doing a lot of national work and became very political, because when you negotiate technical standards, it's politics as much as it is engineering. Anybody who doesn't believe that doesn't know how these things work. And were able to negotiate, and the FCC did adopt our recommendations, and that really opened some important doors for me. And by this time, I was a reasonably well respected inspector on behalf of governments. But I went on to being doing more expert witness work. And one of the cases that I was involved with was a small little case called Playboy versus the United States, which came out of the 1996 Telecom act. And section 505 of the Telecom act had a requirement for cable TV systems to scramble adult channels.



Jonathan W6JLK
35:55
Playboy and another company sued the federal government, saying that it was technically impossible and also a violation of their First Amendment rights. I was hired by the FCC and the DOJ to be their technical advisor, their expert witness in that case. And I proved that, in fact, what the law required was technically feasible. That part of the case was won. And I testified in federal court in front of a three court federal panel in Wilmington, Delaware. That case went up to the Supreme Court several times, and eventually it was decided for Playboy, but not on technical grounds. Not on technical grounds. So I was very happy with the outcome of that because we showed that the technology exists to do it, and it then became a purely First Amendment case.



Jonathan W6JLK
36:40
And for the lawyers out there, you know that when you're dealing with First Amendment, virtually every time, the government loses, as it did in this case. So when I came back from testifying in that case, my wife, very soon after I got back, said, and this is almost a completely true story. I'll frame it that way. She said, you know, you're an idiot. I said, today? And she said, no, generally. But I said, okay, so why am I an idiot? She said, because you're already teaching continuing legal education courses on cable TV law. You're ghosting briefs for the federal government. You're doing legal research. You're teaching federal attorneys about this stuff. Why aren't you an attorney? And I basically made a gasping sound.



Jonathan W6JLK
37:25
And she said, and by the way, I've signed you up to go to an introductory meeting at a local law school here in Los Angeles. And I said, yes, dear. And I went. And I had a ball. It was one. A legal education mid career is an incredible experience, because the things that have made sense instinctively make sense because you understand how they come about. So it connected all the dots for me. And after I graduated, and as we like to say, eventually I passed the California bar, I, by that point, had a consulting company where I was, gosh, I had 700, 800 clients already by that point, local governments around the country who had hired me as a technical advisor. So I opened up a law firm with seven or 800 clients.






Jonathan W6JLK
38:11
On the first day, they come back and they say, need some more help? And I said, okay, but it's going to be through the law firm. They said, well, we don't care. And that law firm now has grown to having six attorneys and four support staff and two CEOs. Canine executive officers, I will tell you, technically, three. I've got to be careful. We have a third CEO.



Eric 4Z1UG
38:32
You said canine executive officer?



Jonathan W6JLK
38:34
Yes, we have three dogs who are members of the company.



Eric 4Z1UG
38:38
I see. Oh, that makes sense.



Jonathan W6JLK
38:40
They work for kibble, by the way. Canine efficiency officers are.



Eric 4Z1UG
38:44
They're in the kibble industry, right? Not the cable industry.



Jonathan W6JLK
38:47
They're in the kibble industry. They actually retard efficiency. That's okay with us.



Eric 4Z1UG
38:51
You know, I just want to interrupt here. The reason I was smiling when you're talking about this Playboy case is that I had systems in Tennessee, and there was a way to scramble the Playboy channel. We would introduce, like, an audio modulated signal into the carrier in order to kind of make it really wavy. Then there was filters that were used to get rid of it.



Jonathan W6JLK
39:13
Positive traps.



Eric 4Z1UG
39:15
Right? Positive traps. So I get a call one afternoon, and it's the manager of the cable system in Tennessee, and he says, I'm in Denver. He says, I need your help. I said, what kind of help can I give you? He says, I need to be bailed out of jail. And I said, well, what happened? He says, well, apparently one of our traps failed at the local elementary school, and the police came and arrested me. I said, well, so what was the channel? He says, it was a playboy channel in the elementary school. I said, well, okay, we'll take care of it. So we bailed him out. It was a technical breakdown of the positive trap that caused him to put his content, his extra paid content, into the elementary school.



Eric 4Z1UG
39:54
Yeah, that was a funny time to be in cable when all of that was happening. We were trying to figure out how to offer a pay service that people wanted and at the same time, to not put it in the places where it was not wanted.






Jonathan W6JLK
40:08
Exactly. And in fact, it was positive traps that I showed to the federal court that said, this is how you can do it. And you can scramble the audio. Or remember, it was a beep, beep.



Eric 4Z1UG
40:20
But it also messed up the video carrier, too, right?



Jonathan W6JLK
40:23
Messed up the video carrier. But you'd still have teenage boys trying to kind of turning sideways.



Eric 4Z1UG
40:30
Of course. Now, as kids, we had, if you remember, was it. HBO was the first scrambled product in Los Angeles on channel 52. Remember, if you go back into the.



Jonathan W6JLK
40:40
70S, that was on TV.



Eric 4Z1UG
40:43
On TV, right?






Jonathan W6JLK
40:44
Yes.



Eric 4Z1UG
40:45
So all of us teenagers were trying to build scramblers that were to undo that just to see if we could.



Jonathan W6JLK
40:51
Absolutely.



Eric 4Z1UG
40:52
Okay, so you start this law firm. You have all of these clients. What are you doing in amateur radio at this time? It seems to me a busy guy like you wouldn't have any time for operating amateur radio yet. If I look at your resume, it's full of things that you were doing at the same time. What were you doing?



Jonathan W6JLK
41:09
I was an early adopter of tapper. I built my first tapper board. The serial number was in the low 300s. I've always been in digital communications. In fact, digital has always been one of my great pleasures in terms of amateur radio. So tapper but I really went kind of low key for a while I was doing HF. In fact, my first HF rig when I was in office was a six l six homebrew. But I then graduated up to my first real radio, which was a Yaesu FTDX 560, which, by the way, I still own to this day. I think over the years I've evolved to VHF and UhF. And really my greatest pleasure these days is in emergency communications as well as Arden radios, which almost go hand in hand these days.






Jonathan W6JLK
42:02
But I've been very involved in amateur radio in terms of Aries. I am in the management of two Aries organizations, one, the larger one in southern California where I've been involved in terms of being the west side representative and be responsible for one of the hospitals on the west side providing connectivity. I am a local government liaison for the Culver City Amateur Radio association amateur radio service. Technically, sea cares where I represent the board of directors in front of the local government. And that's, by the way, that's really an important thing that as amateurs we don't do very well. We don't represent ourselves in front of local governments very well.



Jonathan W6JLK
42:45
So I actually created this position and sold the board of sea carers that we needed to have FaceTime in front of the city council and tell them what we're doing because the city of Culver City actually tremendously supports amateur radio and supports the Ares organization. Seek cares in the city. So we do that. I guess that becomes a natural for me because of my work in terms of politics as an amateur radio operator. But because I work for cities, I've also been involved in dealing with amateur radio disputes with local governments. Permit issues. That's a very common one, is permit issues. I write ordinances on behalf of local governments that also touch on amateur radio. And not surprisingly, I pretty much take a hands off amateur radio minimum.



Jonathan W6JLK
43:38
The FCC, back so many years ago, passed PRB one, adopted PRB one, which created a framework of national respect for amateur radio, if not preemption. California has a very strong, in fact, even stronger than PRB one rule for amateur radio protection. So I've been called in by cities saying, we've got this application from an amateur radio operator and we don't understand it. I said, I do, and walk through it. And this is where the technical background comes into play again because amateur says, I need a 65 foot tower. Why? Because that's what's sold well. Can you operate at a lower height? Well, I can, but it's not going to work as well. Okay. Do you have the iMac documents to show the best takeoff angle versus height? Oh, yeah, it shows 47ft. Okay. Can you agree to operate your tower at 47ft?






Jonathan W6JLK
44:41
Because that'll give your lowest angle of radiation. Oh, that makes sense. This is how I've been able to solve problems with amateurs and local governments. Still the biggest issue.



Eric 4Z1UG
44:54
Can I ask you a question, though?



Jonathan W6JLK
44:55
Sure.



Eric 4Z1UG
44:56
I think that most people these days, I see, for example, we're in an election season and everybody's concentrating on the presidential election, but it seems to me that most people and most hams, but most people, they couldn't tell you who their city council members are. They don't know who's on the school board. They don't know anything about their local government. And those people have the most influence on their day to day life.



Jonathan W6JLK
45:20
Right.






Eric 4Z1UG
45:20
For amateur radio operators, I mean, I think there's a whole reason that people should know who they're today. As a matter of fact, in my town, we have a runoff election between two candidates for mayor who happened to be very close in the last election a week or two ago. So today I'm going to go vote after this just for one of those candidates in this runoff election, because at least in my town, under the circumstances that we live in, the city council is essentially important to our lives, our very lives at this point. But I don't think most people know this about their own. So if you're an amateur radio operator, why should I become involved in my local government as an amateur radio operator? And how do I get the training or understanding of what are the issues for the city government?



Eric 4Z1UG
46:08
What do they have with me and how do we work together?



Jonathan W6JLK
46:11
The why is very easy. It's to overcome ignorance. And most elected officials are ignorant of amateur radio. In a worst case scenario, they think it's the same as cell towers. And that's just wrong. It's one of the reasons why I created this position, ccares to be a local government liaison so that we have a way of talking to the electives and doing that education, because they are the ones who adopt the ordinances that regulate antennas placement, setbacks, permit fees, that's always a big issue. Permit fee, the cost of getting a construction permit and permit fees can be really substantial, both PRB one and in fact, in California, the California legislation talks about the minimum regulation required for amateur radio.



Jonathan W6JLK
47:01
So amateur radio operators need to be politically aware of local governments because they set the rules and having a good relationship with amateur radio operators from the city side and amateurs with the city is important, but this all comes back down to when the s hits the fan, and we're the only ones that are working. So being out there and being involved in Cert. Community emergency response team with Ares. Again, I'll pick on Culver City because they're doing things so well there. We just had field day, winter Field day a few weeks ago, and it was at a fire station. We actually set up at a fire station, and then the fire department gave us one of their emergency trailers to use during Field day. So in Culver City, they've got a spectacular relationship with the fire department. Who is the sponsor?



Jonathan W6JLK
47:59
In fact, our EOC is within their main fire department headquarters. We have a great relationship with the city council, but these are the things that amateur radio operators don't do effectively.



Eric 4Z1UG
48:14
Was that immediate opportunity that your winter field day for more knowledge of amateur radio by the general public?



Jonathan W6JLK
48:21
We actually, during the summer field day, operate from a state park, which is a very popular park. The field day during the winter? No, because it's behind lock gates. It's inside fire department headquarters. But we wanted to test. We had never operated from that particular fire station before, so we wanted to see how well it would work from there. Turns out it didn't work very well. But now we have more information, and it just helps us just cement why our main operations are at the main fire station. The bottom line is amateurs are known for experimentation, and we need to do as much experimentation within our emergency communications.



Jonathan W6JLK
48:58
That's why we do field days, why we do winter field days, why we do summer field days, why we do all those other things that are contests, but in fact, help us really hone our skills operating?



Eric 4Z1UG
49:10
Do we forget that, though? I mean, do we forget that's really the purpose of these field day operations, is to hone these skills?



Jonathan W6JLK
49:18
I hope that we don't forget them. If you get the training and it's flavored like candy, you're still getting the training.



Eric 4Z1UG
49:26
Okay, can I go back a little bit in terms of local governments? The big problem that a lot of people tell me is that they can't buy a house that's not in an HOA. But an HOA tends to be in a local government. The streets may be owned by the city and county where they live. What's the impact of involvement in local government when you have an HOA that you have to deal with in terms of being able to put up antennas and to be able to support your amateur radio hobby there?



Jonathan W6JLK
49:54
So let's define some terms here. An HOA is a homeowners association, and essentially it's a group of homeowners who are owners of homes in the same community. And when the community was developed by a developer, the developer created an HOA, a homeowners association, which is basically a local government. So they operate at the very bottom, closest to the ground level. And those HOAs will often have rules that say you can't have external antennas. Now, this is different from local governments. Local governments create rules for entire cities. HOAs create rules for small neighborhoods, and things that local governments cannot do because of law, HOAs can. And this is a huge tension.



Jonathan W6JLK
50:44
In fact, there's currently a new bill that has been introduced at the federal level that would preempt a lot of these local HOA regulations and allow for antennas where they are prohibited by the local rules of the HOA. These are good things because at the end of the day, we can't operate as amateur radio operators without antennas. It turns out that's pretty amazing, but true. You need antennas to work, and antennas need to be generally above what we call the clutter, the top of the building, the trees. You can't have them at ground level for the most part. So HOAs are very problematic for amateur radio operators. And in fact, I give a lecture to local clubs here in California.



Jonathan W6JLK
51:39
In fact, I've done as far as a couple of states away, but on dealing with local governments and HOAs, and you can't deal that much with HOAs because their rules so far are enforceable against amateurs.



Eric 4Z1UG
51:53
And they're enforceable because when you move into the Hoa, you actually sign a contract.



Jonathan W6JLK
51:58
You sign a contract that says, I agree to be subject to these rules. And the crazy thing about it, the craziest thing about it, from my perspective, in fact, I covered this in one of my lectures. The lecture, of course, is I'm from the government and I'm here. But the crazy thing about HOA rules is that, let's say you've got a ham radio operator at one end of an HOA, and then a quarter mile away, there's another part of the same HOA. Well, that person who can't see the antenna has nothing to do with it, doesn't even know that otherwise, wouldn't know that it's there, can still object by saying, look, I had to sign these rules. The amateur had to sign these rules. I can enforce them. Rules against the amateur called an equitable servitude.



Jonathan W6JLK
52:44
Essentially, anybody who's subject to the rules can enforce those same rules against anybody else who's subject to those rules. And this is a major issue for amateur radio. And so much of this predates really a good understanding of amateur radio during the building boom of the lot of these HOAs were created and it was just someone had a boilerplate that said no external antennas. Now the thinking was no external TV antennas, which interestingly has been overruled by the FCC. Now under the o tard rules, the over the air receiving devices rules, but the FCC has never extended those otard protections to amateur radio. So those rules that were originally created in CCNRs to prohibit TV antennas have effectively been used to prohibit amateur radio antennas. It's not a good situation.



Eric 4Z1UG
53:42
And now this mid show break every two weeks I listen to the Ham radio workbench podcast with George KJ6VU, Vince VD6LK, Mark N6MTS, Thomas K4SWL, Michael, VA3MW and Rod, VA3ON, and their guest on often topical and important projects in amateur radio. This discussion amongst the regulars and their guests remind me of the conversations that I used to listen to on 146.94 and 146.46 MHz in Orange County, California while working on my own workbench almost 50 years ago. It is amazing how much practical ham radio knowledge that we can absorb by listening to the Workbench podcast. That starts to make sense when we start our own deep dive into our own projects.



Eric 4Z1UG
54:32
So join me by listening to the ham radio workbench podcast now, and as George and crew push beyond 200 episodes, you can get to the Ham radio Workbench podcast by clicking on the banner in this week's show notes page. And now back to our QSO.



Eric 4Z1UG
54:48
Are you optimistic that with the federal legislation that perhaps that will actually go through? And are you optimistic from that standpoint?



Jonathan W6JLK
54:56
Well, we are recording this talk between two friends at a time when the federal government is completely dysfunctional. And do I expect something as innocuous as amateur radio protection to get through Congress? I actually have a higher hope because it is innocuous. Maybe it can sneak through, but then again, you just never know. That legislation has been kicking around in various forms. Overl has been a strong supporter of getting waivers, of trying to get OTAR protections, trying to get Congress to step in, getting back after I'm going to circle back for a reason here. After I left Northridge and went to trade tech years and years later, as you know and figured out, I went and got a JD. After that, I didn't stop.



Jonathan W6JLK
55:47
I went and got a master's of law degree in telecommunications law, and then I finished my terminal degree as a doctorate in law and policy from northeastern University. Well, if there's anything I've learned in terms of policy, and learned it from northeastern, is that policy is constantly evolving. Policy is a circle. You begin, you get on, and you look for policy entrepreneurs, people who share the same policy interests, even though there's an old saying in policy which is there are no permanent issues. I'm sorry, there are no permanent enemies, only permanent issues. So you find the people you can support. So do I think that this will eventually change? Yes. How long it will take? It will take the right policy windows to open for this to sneak through.



Jonathan W6JLK
56:34
I wish my crystal ball were so well polished that I could tell you when, but I think it will happen. I just don't know if it's going to be in two years or in ten years. But I think the value of amateur radio, the policy windows will open, unfortunately, after a major disaster, after amateur radio operators step up, and when the cell phones crap out, and when the broadcasters go off air, and when a lot of the emergency communications and even the firstnet operations go down and amateur radio stays up, that's when our policy windows will open to help Congress justify the preemptions that we're talking about right now. So it's waiting, I hate to put it this way, but we're waiting for the right disaster.



Eric 4Z1UG
57:17
Yeah. Well, on this side of the world, we're almost there. I just bought a 7000 watt generator. I'm getting batteries for my ham station to trickle charge so I have enough to make communications. I'm experimenting with mesh tastics so that the neighbors have messaging between their cell phones, it does put things in a very specific light. And it's interesting to me that even after Hurricane Katrina and after Hurricane Sandy and all the stuff that people don't, the right people don't see the value of amateur radio. When nothing else worked, the hurricane in Puerto Rico was an amazing example of how everything can disappear for weeks and weeks. And amateur radio is the only way to communicate.






Jonathan W6JLK
58:01
Right. We didn't disappear. We're the ones who didn't disappear.



Eric 4Z1UG
58:05
Right. People got on the airplanes and flew into the disaster area with their amateur radios and provided the communications. I'm very curious. You mentioned a little bit earlier about appliance technicians, appliance engineers. Do you think that because I've talked to a number of people who are in the broadcast industry, people who are involved in the Society of cable Television Engineers, who are thinking that because it doesn't seem that young people have hobies, at least other than smartphone viewing, like we did when were kids and stuff. Is there a supply of upcoming young people to be engineers of the caliber that maybe our generation, the generation before that put out to be able to create this innovation in all these industries?



Jonathan W6JLK
58:50
The answer is absolutely not. And yes, and I'll tell you what I mean. The world is not a static place, as we all know, and we know that right now, what we see on the horizon is artificial intelligence and that how people maintain things will be based on inputs from AI. But will there be a place for amateur radio operators? Because amateur radio really belies a connection to AI. We'll still have people who are intelligently aware of the technology, as opposed to simply going down a checklist, going, okay, if a, then B, if C, then D, going through those decision trees. The biggest thing we need to do is to identify how to bring in young people into our hobby. And this is like so many of us started at the high school level. This is the electronic classes in high school.



Jonathan W6JLK
59:47
We need to focus on that.






Eric 4Z1UG
59:49
Are they still there? I went to the same school system that you were in as a kid. I was just talking to somebody yesterday, because the generator I'm getting only has 3 hours worth of gas tank, but we have natural gas, or essentially butane that comes out of a large tank on the street. And so I'm converting my brand new generator to natural gas, and it's not so hard, but I understand how it works. And this guy asked me, he says, well, how do you understand how that works? I said, well, I went to public school in California, and we had auto shop, electronic shop, wood shop. I took all of those classes in addition to the college prep classes. And so I had exposure to all of that.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:00:28
I spent years holding the light and I think amateur radio, because you've got to pull a generator in for field day or you've got to do something. It gives you this expertise that you couldn't get anywhere else. But I don't think that public schools anymore, at least you can say this in California, but I think across America, no longer think that those classes were important, and so they eliminated those classes from the curriculum.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:00:51
There will still always be people who are naturally know. I don't know if you know this name, but Xilen Foxlin, have you heard of.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:00:59
No, no, but I'm writing it down.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:01:01
You need to write down, this is someone who you absolutely must meet. She is a young doer and experimenter, and has involved amateur radio, very popular on YouTube, and is really wetting the appetite of young people towards do it yourself stuff. And between various technologies, these are the people that we need to get to be the influencers. Who said it's cool to be in stem? Stem is so important and supporting Stem.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:01:37
But stem is a kind of a college. What if you're add but you're good with your hands and stuff like this?



Jonathan W6JLK
01:01:44
STEM is not a college thing. I absolutely disagree with you. We need to be involving people into STEM courses and philosophy and direction at the high school level, even if not sooner than that. We need to get them excited. We need to let them know that there are STEM opportunities, and especially for young women who are still underrepresented, both in STEM and in amateur radio.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:02:12
Okay, well, STEM is what? Science, technology, engineering and math, right. I have a sense from talking to you, Jonathan, that as a C student in high school, that maybe mathematics was not your strongest suit. And frankly, I died in engineering school on the altar of differential equations and ended up getting a history degree. So I'm saying that on the one hand. On the other hand, I can fix anything, whether it's mechanical or electronic. And there are a lot of people like that. And so when you say STEm in school, I kind of think that it's in the classroom and stuff like that, and it's not in the electronic shop, but maybe you've got it. Maybe there's something else happening that I'm not aware of, or maybe we should because we're involved in our local city councils and school boards and stuff.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:02:56
Maybe we should be involved as amateurs in pushing the hands on side of the technology. What do you think about it?



Jonathan W6JLK
01:03:03
We absolutely should. And in fact, yes, I was a very average student in math because it really wasn't interesting to me. It wasn't relevant to me until I got into high school. And in electronics, suddenly imaginary numbers made sense because I was doing calculations for impedance and reactants, and this is what interested me. So I immediately knew the math because it made sense. It was relevant to me, it had to be made relevant. And when it was, I was an a student. I was an a student through the rest of my education. Absolutely, through the rest of my education, because the things that were relevant to me opened doors for me into my mind.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:03:48
And this is why finding out what triggers young people to be interested in something will find the people who are interested in amateur radio, because they just don't know it yet. We have to find them and show them amateur radio and we will find a lot of people who would just say, yeah, that's not very interesting to me. And then we'll find the, oh, wow, this is really cool, kids. So it's like anything else, it's a numbers game. And until we're out there and we're introducing amateur radio at the junior high school and the high school level and taking down some of the barriers. And right now, the FCC license fees, well, the ARRL have stepped forward to reduce some of those fees.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:04:30
Our club, sea cares, has, there's a fund to support initial licenses so that those licenses are basically, you pass the test, you don't pay things like that.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:04:43
How do we get a parent to deliver their child to an amateur radio club meeting when they don't want to sit in the back of the room at all with their kid?



Jonathan W6JLK
01:04:52
There's no single answer to this. But what there is what is important is you have to have the local government support. If we're just a ham radio club association, that's one thing. But when the city council, when the county government supports it, and we're having our meeting at the fire department, in fact, in one of the two organizations I belong to, we meet at a major hospital in the San Fernando Valley. They make their facility available to us at no charge because we support them. That's at Valley Presbyterian Hospital in Culver City. Our meetings are held at the municipal. There's a municipal building, and we have access to that because the city supports us. So it's the third party credibility that makes us different and overcome some, but not all of the concerns that you have. But again, this is a numbers game.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:05:55
We're not going to get 50% of the people. We're trying to say, hey, come look at this. If we can get 5%, it's a numbers game. You build on small numbers and you build the next level up and the next level up. And once you have older brothers and older sisters who are involved, younger brothers and younger sisters will have at least exposure to it and will want to know.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:06:18
Well, I always hope with my students that they're so infatuated by the hobby or by whatever it is they've learned that they are thought leaders for their age. So when they become teenagers, because they're doing something that's completely different than all their friends, that they kind of act as this magnet for bringing other kids into the hobby. But I think we're challenged now. It's not just amateur radio. I mean, I think that, like, every hobby is challenged with people not participating in hobbies. We're at a point now where it seems that everything's disposable and nobody needs any skills for anything. And I guess I'm worried that I'm the only guy in a city of 15,000 people that knows how to convert a gas generator to natural gas, because I know how they work, and I can find the instructions on YouTube.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:07:09
I owe my ability to do anything because of my amateur radio background. I'm frustrated and at a loss because I see that it's almost like forbidden planet. We're talking about AI, and we're talking about this technology that we have that could overtake us because we don't have an interest in how things work. We assume they just work.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:07:29
There will always be inquisitive minds that are looking for things to be inquisitive about. I believe that. I want to believe that, and I want to take the steps to find those minds and give them an opportunity. And if people will take the opportunity, that's great, but at least we've got to offer them the opportunity. We don't do that very well. We just don't reach out very well to expose amateur radio to young people. And that's why this is a hobby with older people. I'm 69 years old. I've been an amateur radio operator for 54 years now, and unfortunately, I'm probably closer to the top of the bell curve than not.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:08:14
Yeah, you might be, actually. So what could we do different? I mean, I'm curious. You mentioned, for example, that you're doing Arden, and I think that for young people, it seems to me that Arden kind of meshes well with a lot of the Venn diagram. There's a lot of overlapping things here with Arden. You can use it with your Wi fi. You can use it with your cell phone. You can use it with. There's a lot of stuff there that could also make you a network engineer if you know how to actually do Arden. Right. What are you doing with Arden? And did that play a role in your winter field day? And does it attract, at least in your club, does it attract younger people to say, this is, like, really fascinating.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:08:51
We have an extremely extensive network in southern California for Arden. We have super hubs. We have all sorts of backbones. And yet, where I live in Santa Monica, I'm the Lone Ranger. I'm one of a couple, only a couple stations in Santa Monica, and I'm an island connected to the Arden network through a Internet tunnel.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:09:14
You can't actually connect to an Arden site from where you're at.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:09:17
Right. I don't see anything from where I am, although I should. The problem is that we need a hilltop site, and in fact, some of us are working to make that happen. But it's an early development, and you're absolutely right. Ardent meshes nicely with people who are interested in networking, computer networking, with PBXs, with messaging, all sorts of things. And the fact that it's a shadow network that touches, it's almost like the amateur radio darknet.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:09:56
Right. Or the parallel universe to the Internet.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:10:00
It is. And again, if we find the right people who are interested in it, this is really cool. I don't mean to cover ground we've already covered, but again, it's a numbers game. We've got to get in front of more people so that we get that percentage that is interested in coming in. And it's a multiplier effect again, once you have someone in the family. Right now, one of my two daughters just passed her FAA drone pilots the remote pilots exam, which I passed a while back. So she's now a remote pilot and now she wants to study for her technician license.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:10:38
What does that mean? She has to have an FAA drone pilot's license? I mean, are you talking about if she goes to a toy store and buys a $300 drone, she actually has to have a license to fly that in California.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:10:48
It's in the US. And it depends on if you're using the drone commercially. It depends on the size of the drone. The FAA licenses drone pilots, called remote pilots.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:11:03
Really? Oh, that's amazing.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:11:05
The reason why I am is because in my business, when I'm doing wireless site inspections, it's easier to do it by drone than any other way. So it's a perfect extension of what I do as an amateur radio operator is to use drones for flying over radio sites.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:11:25
As a cable operator, you could actually do leakage detection using drones.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:11:28
Now leakage detection using drones would be a very good thing, especially if you're trying to get to back property where you can't do it. Or frankly, it's much more efficient to fly over a cable line to find that one loose connection or that one piece of cable that somebody decided to say, oh, that's a good thing to shoot at, and creates a hole. So yeah, drones here are very important in terms of inspection work. So that's why we have in our law firm drone pilots. And that's why the next license my daughter wants to get is a technician.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:12:08
License, because she's also for amateur radio technician license.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:12:11
Exactly. She's concerned about emergency communications.






Eric 4Z1UG
01:12:15
Maybe she'll be an influencer.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:12:17
I can only hope.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:12:18
Well, it sounds to me her father's an influencer as well.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:12:21
I've been very lucky to be the right person at the wrong place at the right time, depending on your point of view. But the fact that you and I are able to talk about this, the fact that you have an audience, the fact that I hope that I've shared the fact that we need to do better as a hobby at the local level, interacting with our local government officials and our planning directors who are normally forgotten about our city attorneys. These are, frankly, all these people influence our ability to operate either with support or with hassles in our local communities if we have the local government behind us. And again, I will look at Culver City as an example. Culver City, California, where there's a strong relationship, it's great.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:13:06
There are some communities in southern California where the local governments are frankly just hostile to amateur radio, and they have in their codes restrictions on amateur radio that predate PRB one or predate the California law. And yet they're still on the books and the planning directors still enforce them because, hey, it's in the code, so.






Eric 4Z1UG
01:13:27
I got to enforce it or they haven't been updated.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:13:30
That's the point. It's exactly the point.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:13:33
Right? Because there's a lot, I mean, when you think about it, if you're in city government and you're a bureaucrat in city government, there's so much stuff that's being run through the mill that unless it's brought to your attention, you may not know about it. You may not know about the things that have changed just by the enormous amount of information. Can I ask you what excites you the most about what's happening in amateur radio now? What really floats your boat?



Jonathan W6JLK
01:13:55
Well, without a doubt, it's emergency preparedness. And that's really at my core. What I really enjoy the most in amateur radio is knowing that when the big earthquake hits, I'll be the one that the neighbors will come to. I'm the one who has the solar panels. I'm the one who has the solar charge controllers. I'm the one who has CerT training. I'm the one who knows how to get out for communications purposes. I know where those resources are. I don't hope for the earthquake, but I know it's coming.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:14:29
Except you're on the wrong side of the Andreas fault.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:14:32
No, no, I'm pretty sure my side of the San Andreas is not going to fall in the ocean despite popular concerns to the contrary. No, but I've gone through major earthquake. I'm born and raised in southern California, so I've gone through major earthquakes here. And understanding that and understanding what mean I really feel sorry for the people who live in hurricane and tornado alley.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:15:00
Oh, yeah, for sure.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:15:01
Because they get hit year after year. We're once every 20 years. If anything, that is worse for us because we're more complacent and not prepared compared to the people who are in Tornado Alley or who are subject to hurricane. They're smart because they have the experience, so they know what to do and they know how to take it seriously. I don't think that we take it all that seriously here.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:15:27
I think we forget in Southern California that a lot of the built up infrastructure that you live in, for example, in Santa Monica, that infrastructure is now almost 100 years old. Yeah.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:15:37
The newer parts of it, yes.






Eric 4Z1UG
01:15:38
So Southern California is at least 60, 70 years old. The established neighborhoods, they may have been great for earthquakes then. Maybe they're not. But I'm just saying that you become complacent. You don't think about foundations and you don't think about infrastructure and things like this, especially when they're old and they're not replaced regularly.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:15:58
We still have infrastructure that's over 100 years old. We experience regular water main breaks, sewer breaks, problems with electricity, because we have mature infrastructure that hasn't grown or been replaced to follow the population trends. So is our network fragile? Yes. Are most people prepared to be on their own for a few days? No. I have here in my office, I have a week's worth of dehydrated food. I have water here. Same thing at home. People in southern California don't know that in an emergency, if all you've got is $5 bills, everything costs $5. So you have to have $1 bills. These are the things you learn from experience.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:16:45
By the way, having cash.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:16:46
Cash isn't the only thing you have. It's the only thing you can have.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:16:50
Right. Because your credit card is not going to work in an emergency.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:16:53
Without being very specific, I will tell you that I have cash stashes at the appropriate places. So wherever I am, I know that I have an emergency supply of cash because cash is king or queen.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:17:06
Yeah, that's very important.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:17:07
During the 90, was it 94 earthquake, 93 earthquake here, I experienced price gouge. It was actually in Northridge. And at that time I lived about 3 miles away from the epicenter and only about a mile above the hypocenter. And for those of you who don't know earthquake terms, you should look it up because those are very different terms. I've ridden out some really interesting rides. I'll put it to you that way.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:17:33
Well, it sounds to me like you've had an amazing ride. Before we go, do you have advice that you'd give to new or returning hams to the hobby?



Jonathan W6JLK
01:17:40
Well, I think obviously I'm a big proponent to be an amateur radio operator who is prepared to support the community in an emergency. However you do that, it's better than not doing it. But have fun. Find things that are interesting. Don't just have a license and a radio that you never turn on. Every year now I do the part of the team that supports the Los Angeles marathon. In fact, earlier yesterday, now, I attended our pre meeting for the LA marathon, which is next weekend. And for years I've worked out on the track providing emergency communications for it. I love the marathon. It's wonderful experience. I do the Rose bowl marathon as well. Find something in amateur radio that really wets your appetite and really dig into it, and you will find other people who share the same interests that you do.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:18:39
You meet a lot of nice people in amateur radio, and the fact that you have this in common just opens doors in an emergency. If I was somewhere and I was really in trouble, I would look for the house with the tower. I would walk up to that door any day of the week and know that I would be welcome because I can talk amateur radio. And amateur radio operators look out for amateur radio operators, by the way.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:19:05
You can do that anywhere in the world.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:19:07
I have no doubt about it. I would look for the antennas. That's where I'm going to go for help. That's the first door I'm going to knock on is a house with ham antennas on it. No question about it. No question about it.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:19:20
Jonathan, this has really been a lot of fun for me. I hope that you enjoyed being a guest on the QSO Today podcast. With that, I want to thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule. And I know it's the middle of the night now. We've been talking for a while. Thank you so much for coming on, Eric.



Jonathan W6JLK
01:19:38
It's been an absolute pleasure and truly a privilege because you've helped me to remember things, getting prepared for this and even just talking today that I haven't thought about in years. And I think back so fondly on the things that I've accomplished, in large part because I started as an amateur radio operator, so thank you for that.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:20:00
My pleasure.



Eric 4Z1UG
01:20:01
That concludes this episode of QSO today. I hope that you enjoyed this QSO with Jonathan. Please be sure to check out the show notes that include links and information about the topics that we discussed. I am now adding summaries and outlines of our discussion to make it easier to find specific points raised in our QSO. Go to www.qsotoday.com and put in W6JLK in the search box at the top of the page.
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Eric 4Z1UG
01:20:53
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Eric 4Z1UG
01:21:47
Positive comments about QSO today on social media is appreciated as it helps to grow our listener base. My thanks to Ben Bresky who makes this podcaster and guests sound brilliant. Thanks Ben. Until next time, this is Eric 4Z1UG the QSO Today podcast is a product of KEG Media, Inc. Who is solely responsible for its content.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:00:00):
QSO today, episode 479 Ante Laurijssen, VA2BBW. This episode of QSO today is listener sponsored. Only you can keep the QSO today podcast coming to you every weekend since 2014. Please become a listener sponsor monthly or annually by clicking on the sponsor banner on the show notes page or at the top of the www.qsotoday.com webpage.

I want to thank Lee Barrett, K7NM, Harold Hall, WB5KZO, and Richard Goodnick NZ2I, who all became listener sponsors this week. Your sponsorships keep QSO today on the air.

Welcome to the QSO today podcast. I'm Eric Guth amateur call sign 4Z1UG, where I demonstrate the diversity and relevance of the amateur radio hobby and its impact on society by interviewing ham radio operators, many of whom played vital roles in shaping our technology through the amateur radio hobby. And while many people might say ham radio, do people still do that? This podcast demonstrates through in-depth interviews just how amazing, diverse and dynamic the amateur radio hobby continues to be.

​Ante Laurijssen, VA2BBW, enjoys the simple art of chasing DX and making contacts on CW QRP and low power modes from Gatineau in southwest Quebec, Canada. Ante is a radio amateurs of Canada Awards manager and he enjoys giving back to the hobby. VA2BBW is my QSO today.

VA2BBW. This is Eric 4Z1UG. Are you there Ante?
Ante VA2BBW (00:01:45):
4Z1UG, This is VA2BBW. I copy 100%.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:01:51):
I'm looking at a beautiful, I thought it was a podcast studio, but it's not. What is it that you're in right now?
Ante VA2BBW (00:01:56):
So this is my shack, my man cave where I have my radio set up where I do my music as well. So what you see in the background there, the paisley and purple things hanging on the wall are actually sound panels
Eric 4Z1UG (00:02:11):
To keep the room from vibrating.
Ante VA2BBW (00:02:13):
Exactly, exactly. I mean it's a small room. This
Eric 4Z1UG (00:02:16):
Is a basement room. Yeah, no windows. I noticed
Ante VA2BBW (00:02:20):
There is one, but you can't see it from the
Eric 4Z1UG (00:02:23):
Up in the top there. Yeah. Ante. Thanks for joining me on the QSO today podcast. Can we start at the beginning of your ham radio story? When and how did it start for you?
Ante VA2BBW (00:02:33):
Well, my interest in radio began when I was a kid. I'd say maybe about nine years old, nine, 10 years old. I remember just randomly getting a little radio kit with cardboard box, something really, really simple that I got from my dad and it came with a little book. I mean the radio itself was fun to build. It was a very simple little kit, but it came with a little book that talked about radio and in there there was information about amateur radio, right? So they talked about people could talk all over the world that there were people like King Hussein of Jordan and Joe Walsh that were amateur radio operators. And to me, more than the actual little radio itself, I found that part really cool knowing that with these, there were people that would talk to each other across the globe. So that lasted a little bit, but there was no, when I was born in 84, so early nineties, there was no internet where you could just Google ham radio and then know everything there is to know.
Ante VA2BBW (00:03:38):
So anyways, later on the interest came back a little bit when a buddy of mine got a little CB handy-talkie a few years later. So for a little while, me and my buddies had our CBs and we talked to each other and also I found a little shortwave receiver that my dad had. I don't know if he bought it or somebody gave it to him. It was this little realistic DX 360, a small portable shortwave shortwave receiver. And I remember when I discovered that, that fascinated me again and kind of rekindled the interest in amateur radio. I guess I was about maybe 12 or 13 and I'd go to bed, I'd turn it on and I'd listen to it until I fell asleep. All these short wave AM broadcast stations from all over the world, but again, at that time you don't have a job, you don't have money. I was reading about ham radio, I found some CQ magazines and things like that, and I thought, oh, one of these days I'll get into this when I'm a bit older and I want to be able to talk to people all over the world as well.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:04:53):
What was the hometown?
Ante VA2BBW (00:04:55):
So I was born in Gatineau, which is just across the river from Ottawa, Canada, the nation's capital. So I grew up, I spent most of my childhood there. Then I moved around a bit, but I stayed in the general Ottawa Gatineau area.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:05:11):
And your QTH is now in,
Ante VA2BBW (00:05:14):
It's in Gatineau.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:05:15):
You're in the hometown?
Ante VA2BBW (00:05:16):
I am in the hometown.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:05:18):
And are your parents still in the hometown?
Ante VA2BBW (00:05:21):
Yep, they are parents. My grandparents on my mom's side as well. So yeah, my dad is from the Netherlands, so he moved over here when met my mom and they got married and he stayed here ever since. Parents are not together anymore, but my dad stayed here and he lives same town as well.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:05:38):
Is your father handy? Did he have a shop in the garage and all that stuff?
Ante VA2BBW (00:05:43):
Not growing up. I mean, he's a handy guy, but we weren't exposed to it that much, that much when we were kids.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:05:51):
Did this early interest in radio kind of define the direction that you went in for your later studies and your career?
Ante VA2BBW (00:05:58):
In a very indirect way? In a very coincidental way, possibly. My job has nothing to do with electronics or radio. I sell mobility equipment, adaptive vehicles for people with disabilities. So I've been working at the same place for the last 15 years and I work in sales basically. And the roundabout way I got there, that has a little bit to do with amateur radio. So my previous job worked for a company that sells physiotherapy equipment and I kind of got re-interested in electronics. They would sell ultrasound machines for therapeutic ultrasound, things like that. And sometimes these machines would break. And so what I did is I took a correspondence course in electronics with one of the colleges here, George Brown College. They do a lot of correspondence stuff. And so I got into that and I started fixing some of these machines and all that. Anyways, long story short, it didn't quite work out where I was working and one day I said, no, I have enough of this, I'm just going to quit. And this, I was I guess 2025. And this was a spur of the moment decision. I'm the kind of guy I will think about something for a long time in my head. And then when I decided I make the decision, it seems like it can be sometimes it could be spur of the moment, but I've been thinking about it for a long time before. Anyways, I got back home that night and I basically told my wife, Hey, I just quit my job.
Ante VA2BBW (00:07:46):
So in my head a bit naively, I thought it's fine, I'll find something within a couple of weeks,
Eric 4Z1UG (00:07:53):
What was her reaction? I mean, we can only guess those of us listening, what her reaction would be.
Ante VA2BBW (00:07:58):
Well, she is very, very supportive. But yes, she actually worked at that same company as well before, so she kind of understood my decision. But we had just bought a house the year before and we have bills to pay,
Eric 4Z1UG (00:08:13):
Right? Mouth defeat, all that stuff.
Ante VA2BBW (00:08:16):
So anyways, I thought I'd find something in two weeks. Well, the reality is that did not happen. But because I had, I'd done my electronics course, I applied, one of the places I applied to was the company where I work now. They were looking for a technician to work in the garage to install some of the equipment in vehicles.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:08:38):
So these would be what wheelchair lifts,
Ante VA2BBW (00:08:40):
Wheelchair lifts, hand controls, secondary controls where you can activate wipers, turn signals with spinner knobs. So I applied there, I went for the interview and then I got a call the next day and they said, well, we really liked you, but we think you'd be more suited for sales. I had never sold anything in my life. I always thought of myself as being very shy as someone that is not good at talking with people. I needed a job. These people seemed really nice. It was a family owned company. People had been working there for 25 years. So talked about it with my wife and we said, well, let's give it a try and 15 years later I'm still there. And so all of this to same.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:09:25):
Did they send you to a sales course?
Ante VA2BBW (00:09:27):
No. Well, I did training with them.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:09:30):
They would take you on sales calls.
Ante VA2BBW (00:09:32):
And again, when I say sales, this is not your typical cold call.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:09:36):
These are people that actually need the product that you're selling.
Ante VA2BBW (00:09:40):
Exactly. I think they saw, I mean, I dunno what they saw in me that told them I would be suited, but it actually does fit very well and I've learned since then to, because like I said, I've always been a shy person. I love meeting all these interesting people and hearing their stories and helping them out at the end of the day,
Eric 4Z1UG (00:10:02):
Well, I live with a handicapped person, so I've found that people like you do amazing things for people that need mobility. My wife feels that because she can drive her car, she has all the freedom in the world that she needs and it makes a big difference.
Ante VA2BBW (00:10:17):
Yeah, when I see people, so from start to finish, when I meet with the client and their occupational therapist and we look at different vehicles, we look at equipment for their vehicles, the smile on their face when everything is done, when they have their equipment, when they sit in their car for the first time and they can actually drive somewhere and they can actually get their wheelchair in their car independently. It's amazing. And it's not something that most people see, people that know about wheelchairs, mobility equipment, it's usually because they know somebody who has a wheelchair or mobility equipment. Most people have no idea how many people are out there that are driving their vehicles with hand controls, some people driving their vehicles with joysticks. It's fascinating.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:11:01):
Well, maybe it's better that we don't know the number of people.
Ante VA2BBW (00:11:04):
Well,
Eric 4Z1UG (00:11:06):
It's a fascinating idea.
Ante VA2BBW (00:11:07):
These people are, they get, I mean here in Canada anyways, they have to be evaluated. It's not easy. And some therapists are very, very strict with the evaluation and these people that are driving on the street.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:11:23):
Is this because these products are funded by the government? It's part of the national health plan?
Ante VA2BBW (00:11:29):
Yeah, there's a national healthcare, but each province has their own system. So this is an interesting situation where I live, because I live in Gatineau, which is in the province of Quebec. I work in Ottawa, which is in the province of Ontario, and we have clients from both sides of the river, but there's a river that separates them. Anyways, in Ontario, there's no funding whatsoever for equipment per vehicles. And in the province of Quebec, there is 100% coverage for the equipment. So I mean, in both provinces, people still have to go through a whole training program for driving. If they don't have the condition on their driver's license, like me, I would not be allowed to drive with hand controls because I don't have that condition on my driver's license. You have to be evaluated, assessed, and then the Ministry of Transport of Ontario will grant you that condition. Or in Quebec, the SAAQ will give you that permission.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:12:35):
So you deliver a vehicle with new hand controls for a client who trains him how to drive the car.
Ante VA2BBW (00:12:42):
The occupational therapist.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:12:44):
So the occupational therapist has something on their license that allows them to drive with hand controls or they're sitting in the copilot seat hoping that the,
Ante VA2BBW (00:12:54):
So they're usually sitting in the copilot seat with a driving instructor from a driving school. The driving instructor is mostly there to make sure that they're following all the rules correctly. But the occupational therapist is the person that will basically evaluate what equipment best fits their needs and assess whether or not physically they're able to do it cognitively if they have the capacity to do it as well.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:13:21):
There's a screening process involved before the order is even made for a van that's specially equipped. The occupational therapist is working with the patient to determine exactly what kind of controls are going to go in.
Ante VA2BBW (00:13:34):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. And for us to be even allowed to install the equipment, we have to make sure that the person has the proper qualifications. So if John Smith walks in and says, I want hand controls in my car, well, we can't just say, yes, we'll do that. We have to make sure that he's got the proper condition on his license or that he has a prescription from a therapist. So there are a lot of rules. So the people that are driving for the most part are safe. I've seen a lot of able-bodied people that are
Eric 4Z1UG (00:14:14):
Not safe
Ante VA2BBW (00:14:15):
That they got their license.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:14:17):
Well, I think we all have. Okay, so how did that end up getting you to the point of amateur radio?
Ante VA2BBW (00:14:23):
So I'll rewind back a little bit. Amateur radio has always been an interest, and when I, pardon me, in my twenties I got into computers, Linux and stuff like that, and all the open source world. And that, funny enough, that kind of brought back the interest in amateur radio. There's a lot of amateur radio operators are Linux nerds as well, and the whole experimenting, tinkering. So that got me interested in amateur radio again. So I decided, all right, well I'll study for the test. And as is typical of what I do, I did everything on my own and I found an examiner on my own and I got my ticket. So I think probably my interest in Linux and computers kind of rekindled the interest in amateur radio. And in my twenties I had the resources and internet was there also. So it was a lot easier to find information
Eric 4Z1UG (00:15:27):
By that time.
Ante VA2BBW (00:15:29):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:15:30):
So you got your first license in what year?
Ante VA2BBW (00:15:33):
In 2008.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:15:34):
How old were you
Ante VA2BBW (00:15:35):
Going on 24. But yeah,
Eric 4Z1UG (00:15:37):
What's the first license class there? Did you go for the first one or did you try to go up the ladder? How does it work there?
Ante VA2BBW (00:15:43):
So in Canada, you've got basically three classes, right? Well, you've got two, and then you can do the morse code. So you've got your basic and your advanced, but you can also do the basic with honors. So in Canada, if you pass your basic exam, you have access to VHF, the two meters, 70 centimeters, all of that stuff. If you pass your basic exam with, I believe it's a mark of 80% or higher, you get your basic with honors, and that basically gives you access to everything hf, all the frequencies. The only thing is your restricted in power, so you can't use as much power as somebody with their advanced license, but you're allowed to use a hundred watts
Eric 4Z1UG (00:16:30):
And you can go anywhere in the band. Like the American Extra Class License for example, has its own little CW portion or its own.
Ante VA2BBW (00:16:38):
Yeah, we can go anywhere.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:16:40):
You can go anywhere. Okay.
Ante VA2BBW (00:16:41):
I don't know how, to me, the American license structure is confusing and there are a lot of rules. Canada is a lot freer for that. If you pass your basic with 80% or more, you get access to all modes, all bands. I forget exactly what the power limit is, but yeah, if you're using a hundred watts, well, within the power limits,
Eric 4Z1UG (00:17:04):
Did you get your basic with honors then?
Ante VA2BBW (00:17:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:17:08):
And did you have an interest in CW at that time?
Ante VA2BBW (00:17:10):
I did not. And that's actually one of the things that I found intimidating when I was younger. So I was saying earlier when I was 12, I was listening to the shortwave bands, getting CQ magazines every now and then, but you still needed to do back then do the Morse code exam, I believe. And I found it interesting, but I thought, how can I learn morse code? That's such a weird thing. So no, I did not have any interest in cw, but that interest came pretty strongly, not too long after.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:17:42):
What drove that interest do you think?
Ante VA2BBW (00:17:44):
Probably as you tune across the bands and you hear the cw, there was something, so as you can see, I enjoy music, right? So I've been playing guitars since I was nine years old. I play a bit of drums, I play a bit of bass. I dabble on the keyboards a little bit. Music is another one of my passions, and there's something very musical about cw. There's also a lot of good DX to be had on cw. That was one thing that drove me to learning it.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:18:17):
And how did you learn it?
Ante VA2BBW (00:18:18):
Again, on my own.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:18:20):
You didn't go to one of the groups?
Ante VA2BBW (00:18:22):
Nope. When I first got licensed, I was not involved really in many of the clubs. I mean, I participated in some of the local nets and I did go to some of the meetings of the Ottawa Club, but I was very much doing all of this on my own. Some people have an Elmer, I just did everything lone wolf style.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:18:47):
How did you build up your code speed? Did you just get on the air and start at a very slow speed and just build it up like you were if you were a novice?
Ante VA2BBW (00:18:55):
Yeah, basically I found out about the SKCC, the Straight Key Century Club, which is a very popular organization or I guess online ham radio club for lack of a better term. And I got my SKCC number and I just got on the air. They had in January of 2010 is when I made my first CW contact with one of the operators. They have this straight key month every January, so where they have the special K three Y call sign and operators from across the states have K three Y stroke zero or K three K three Y stroke seven. And I just, one day I heard him call CQ and I said, alright, I had practiced enough. I said, alright, you're going to do this. So I hopped on the air and I've just been enjoying CW ever since.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:19:52):
One of the things I like about cw, I mostly listen, but as I'm going up and down the band, it is really hard for me at least on my 7,300 to tune in a single SIDEBAND conversation that I can understand. I don't remember having this problem as a younger person, but the CW conversations are nice and kind of clean. There's space between them. They're nice and clean all the way up and down the band. I'm thinking this is so much easier them trying to listen to single sideband.
Ante VA2BBW (00:20:19):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. You and I are of a different age. I have heard this from some older operators older than myself that it becomes harder to tune into a single sideband signal and even here when the bands are crowded or there's a lot of QRM, it's difficult. You really have to strain sometimes, even if the signal is loud, whereas cw, it just cuts through.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:20:50):
Well, I hope I get messages from people that either tell me that, oh, Eric, you just don't know how to set up your 7,300. Which may be true, but I find that on the Kenwood TS-520. I actually can tune in the single sideband, but that radio is almost 50 years old, so that one I can actually hear the single sideband pretty well. But with the 7,300 it seems kind of challenging. And now this mid show break, the future of podcasting and the QSO today podcast is listener sponsorship. It keeps us lean and focused on providing you the best ham radio interviews since 2014. You can keep the QSO today podcast commercial and sponsor free by becoming a listener. Sponsor yourself for $10 a month or save 20% at a hundred dollars per year. You can become a listener sponsor. I'm now recording the QSO today podcast as video interviews that are available only as a benefit to listener sponsors through our QSO today community website.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:21:50):
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Eric 4Z1UG (00:22:57):
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Ante VA2BBW (00:24:22):
I love chasing DX. I've got a really simple setup here at home and I'm very happy with how it performs and chasing DX, getting my DXCC count up. Again, it goes back to that what brought me into radio in the beginning is just these signals from all over the world and to me, being able to contact these people, even if it's just for a ten second QSO during a contest or one of these de expeditions that have thousands of people calling them. Just the magic of, I know we all understand the science behind it now, but there's still something magical I find about somebody on Clipperton Island that can hear my signal that never ceases to amaze me.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:25:11):
Do you have a technique for pouncing on DX in order to be able to get the contact, especially if it's during the expedition,
Ante VA2BBW (00:25:19):
There's all sorts of stuff you can do. There's actually a really good book that I learned a lot from. What's it called? The complete DXer, I think it's called. I forget who wrote it, but I would highly recommend it to anybody and I mean the techniques in it, they will be valid for forever.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:25:38):
I'll find the reference and put it in the show notes page.
Ante VA2BBW (00:25:41):
Yeah, it's a really good book.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:25:42):
Somebody told me the other day that what they do is if it's a big the expedition, they don't jump in on the first day.
Ante VA2BBW (00:25:49):
I agree.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:25:49):
They let all of the big boys get in on the first day and then they go in on later days.
Ante VA2BBW (00:25:54):
Yeah, I've learned also, especially for me, I run a hundred watts with a hundred foot long doublet up in my attic. Right. I'm not a big gun station by any means, and for sure on the first day I don't bother even trying usually and a lot of the expeditions, I was able to get them on the very last day or a couple of days before and then all of a sudden, oh, I've worked them on three, four different bands. Whereas if I had tried on the first day, I mean, forget about it
Eric 4Z1UG (00:26:24):
Now you have an attic doublet though. That's very interesting. Do you live in a neighborhood where you can't have antennas?
Ante VA2BBW (00:26:29):
No,
Eric 4Z1UG (00:26:30):
No maintenance. It's up there. You don't have to worry about the snow taking it out.
Ante VA2BBW (00:26:33):
Exactly. I only recently got, so I got my license in 2008. I was pretty active until 2015. Then we moved to this place and I kind of took a break from the hobby. My kids were young. I wasn't sure what to do for antennas and there was other stuff going on, and when I got back into the hobby last year, I just wanted to start simple. I didn't want to have this big wires outside and all that, so I said, I'll just put something up in the attic, we'll see how it works, and again, don't have to worry about the elements, don't have to worry about wind, stuff like that. And yeah, it works well. And the a hundred foot length, I mean, I'm a simple guy, right? I had a roll of 50 feet of speaker wire and that's why my doublet is a hundred feet, so 50 foot each leg. I just took the roll of wire, split the wires apart and yeah.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:27:30):
Do you have an antenna tuner at the bottom of it?
Ante VA2BBW (00:27:32):
I do. So the antenna is fed with 450 OHM lateral line that goes into a manual antenna tuner.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:27:41):
Oh wow. That's your all band?
Ante VA2BBW (00:27:43):
All band. Simple. Like I said, I'm a simple guy. I like having one antenna. I know how my tuner works. It's reliable. I can get it to work on 80 meters to 10 meters even six, and it does everything ladder line. I love ladder line, especially if you're feeding a multi-band doublet and you're going to have high SWR on different bands. Get a good manual tuner, low loss feed line, just simple doublet and you'll be able to work the world.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:28:18):
It's almost what I have here. I actually have an electronic tuner out in a box on the side of the house and it goes straight up on. We're using 450 ohm ladder line up to an inverted V that's about 60 feet high.
Ante VA2BBW (00:28:31):
You don't need much.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:28:32):
You don't need much. Right. And 20 meters looks just fine. So what is the current rig then that you operate from home with this doublet antenna?
Ante VA2BBW (00:28:40):
So the current rig I have is a Yaesu FT four 50 basic all bands, all mode hf, HF rig, and I've had that for quite a while now and it works well. You always get the desire for the latest and greatest, but at the prices that things are right now and the fact that my radio does everything I needed to do, I don't see the need to change it for anything, anything new at this point.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:29:12):
There's some pictures of you operating QRP out in the field. Do you also operate POTA? Are you doing anything like that? Parks on the air?
Ante VA2BBW (00:29:20):
I do. I enjoy POTA. I'm not the most active POTA operator. I mean, there's these people that are, I mean they're out almost every day. I mean, some of them are retired, so they have a bit more time than I do. But yeah, I do enjoy operating portable. I have a group of local amateurs that we try to get together every now and then to do a POTA activation. Some of these guys, I've been doing stuff since around 2010 when I started being active on hf. When I was active back then we did some, POTA was not around, but we did do some summits on the air. There's also this group I'm part of called the Polar Bear QRP group. They're the original, I'll say they were POTA before POTA existed. Basically it's a group of amateurs that they get out in the winter month. They have their Polar Bear Moonlight Madness event every month. So on the Saturday closest to the full moon, this group gets out somewhere in the field Right now, a lot of times it's in conjunction with the POTA Park, but back in 20 10, 20 11, it was just anywhere portable. You'd go out in the woods and we'd try to contact each other with five watts or less.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:30:36):
When you hear about polar bears, you normally think that you have to jump into a frozen lake first before you operate.
Ante VA2BBW (00:30:43):
No, but I'll tell you here in Canada it gets pretty cold. You don't have to jump in a frozen lake to feel the cold
Eric 4Z1UG (00:30:51):
Before go ice fishing with the rig.
Ante VA2BBW (00:30:53):
Yeah. Well it's funny you say that. One of the groups here in Gatineau, they did a few activations on the river with ice fishing activities and amateur radio back in the day.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:31:07):
So the river freezes over.
Ante VA2BBW (00:31:09):
Yes, there certain areas I wouldn't venture onto, but along the edges. Oh yeah. There's people that have, once it's thick enough, they have their ice fishing cabin on the river. You hear stories every year about somebody losing their cabin. It went through the ice or something. But it does freeze over thick enough in areas to be able to do that
Eric 4Z1UG (00:31:33):
For people like me that are at much lower latitudes where it seems to be relatively warm even in the winter months. That seems very interesting. I should actually go up there. I've been in Montreal once during a snowstorm. I thought that was interesting. The airport didn't close. I thought that was even more interesting that we still landed in the airport and they still gave me a rental car even though the snow drifts were high.
Ante VA2BBW (00:31:55):
Oh yeah. Well, it's all relative. So I have family in Holland, my uncle cousins and all that, and last time I went to visit, they were showing me these pictures of a snowstorm they had, the thermometer showed minus five and they had an inch or two of snow on the ground and the whole country had shut down.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:32:18):
They're not used to the snow.
Ante VA2BBW (00:32:20):
They're not used to it. Yeah,
Eric 4Z1UG (00:32:21):
We get snow here once every couple of years. It'll snow up upward at the elevation that I'm at. In the past we had no idea what to do. We just didn't do anything. And now we kind of know that maybe we should strategically position tractors around the city just to be able to keep the main roads open. It's an interesting thing to have a change in weather when you normally don't have weather.
Ante VA2BBW (00:32:44):
Right.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:32:44):
Let's move on a little bit. I ran into something that I thought was interesting. You said that you're a Linux user. I am too. That you like open source? I love open source. I came across S-D-F-A-R-C. The SDF Amateur Radio Club. I was looking at the website and it didn't look much like amateur radio, but it sure looked a lot like computers. What is the S-D-F-A-R-C?
Ante VA2BBW (00:33:07):
So SDF Super Dimension Fortress. It's basically a shell provider community. So you can set up an account and you can SSH into this Unix computer. They have a bulletin board system. They have a community of users where you can chat share stuff. You have your own space, people who want to learn about Unix and Linux but are running Windows at home and they can create an account and log in and you're in a UN shell. I think they run net BSDI forget. And they have a community there. They, there are a few amateur radio operators on there. I haven't been very involved with that group, but I'll SSH in once in a while I'll check the bulletin board, maybe post a message on the amateur radio subject there and chat with some users. But yeah, I got on SDF when I started getting into Linux again in my twenties. I learned about that and I thought, oh, that's pretty cool. You can SSH into this machine and you've got your own little home directory and you can do stuff.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:34:23):
Right. SSH is a terminal mode, right, using putty or something like that.
Ante VA2BBW (00:34:28):
Exactly, yeah.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:34:29):
When I was looking at your QR Z page, I noticed that you actually have multiple QR Z pages and you have your call sign, which is VA2BBW, but then you've got QRZedages for VA2BBW/home, VA2BBW/p. I'm assuming that's for portable. So you've got a few of them up there and why do you do that and how does that work exactly?
Ante VA2BBW (00:34:51):
I do that because, so it's not a requirement in Canada to add, let's say I'm operating in Ontario, so for those who don't know, so the VA two or VA two is the call sign prefix for the province of Quebec and VA three or VA three is the call sign prefix for Ontario. So the way the call signs work in Canada is you've got, each province has their own number. So it's not a requirement in Canada to, I think it might be in the states, I'm not sure, but it's not a requirement to add stroke portable if you're portable or stroke VE34ME, for example, if I'm operating in Ontario. But it's good practice where some people think it's good practice, including myself, and I just like to separate out one of my pet peeves with the US call sign structure is that the numbers are kind of meaningless. Now they're loosely associated to a call area, but nothing makes me,
Eric 4Z1UG (00:35:56):
No, it used to be that if you were operating mobile, like I was WA6IGR, that if you were operating HF mobile or something, you'd say WA6IGR mobile six or mobile four or whatever, depending on where you were or portable six. So that at least people knew that you weren't in your QTH and that your call sign actually meant that you were from California.
Ante VA2BBW (00:36:19):
To me, there's nothing more infuriating than working at KL seven and realizing they're in Florida.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:36:26):
Right. I also think that the remote control rules don't seem to be right in that is that somebody could operate from Florida, a station in six land, a remote control station in six land and use their four call and you don't know that they're actually operating through a remote base station. It seems to me that maybe there needs to be some way that people actually know that they're operating through a station and where that location
Ante VA2BBW (00:36:51):
Is. And that's sort of why I did it. I know some of my ham radio buddies that I do the POTA with, and again, because we're right on the border between the provinces, I have friends in Ottawa with VE3 call signs that when they come and operate in Quebec, they'll use their regular call sign without adding the stroke, which is fine. There's nothing legally wrong with that. It's just my personal preference. I like when things are structured and all that. So same thing with the slash QRP or slash p, this stroke P, whenever I'm operating in the province of Quebec portable, I always add the stroke PI don't have to, it's not a requirement. I just like to do that. And the stroke, QRP, I mean that's even less of a requirement. That's just when I operate at five watts, I will sometimes add the stroke QRP. Sometimes that can get you a contact quicker. Sometimes it doesn't. Some people don't care and they find that annoying. They don't care how much power you're running, so don't add the QRP. So I don't always add it, but I also notice that when I put my logs into logbook of the world, sometimes some operators will just, when I tell them I'm running QRP, they automatically enter my call sign as stroke QRP for some reason.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:38:11):
Are you running different logs with each of these different QRZ pages? Are you managing the bookkeeping differently for each one of these modes? Do you have a logbook for P and a logbook for QRP?
Ante VA2BBW (00:38:23):
I do, I do. And I cause myself a lot of extra work because I'm old fashioned for a lot of stuff. So I do a paper log when I'm in the shack and when I fill one of my pages with about 20 contacts, I'll sit down with a cup of tea and I'll enter my log into the computer.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:38:45):
You're not using optical character recognition as an open source Unix sky?
Ante VA2BBW (00:38:50):
No. I don't know if any system could recognize what I write. And then I keep track of which for every QSO I write, the power I use and it's usually either a hundred watts or five watts. I rarely play around with 50, 75, 76 watts. It's usually either full power or five watts. So I put my log in the computer, then I take my QRP QSOs and I put them also in another log. So all my contacts from my home QTH will be under VA2BBW. And then the QRP contacts, I will also take them and they're in their own separate lock because as I said, even if I don't use the stroke QRP during the contact for some reason, some people when they know I run QRP, they will add that. So I've gotten confirmations on Lab of the World for my stroke QRP when I was not using that call sign, but they just added it. So there you go. And plus it gives me a way to keep track of my DXC count with QRP power. So that's another reason why I do that. Now
Eric 4Z1UG (00:40:03):
You got DX CCC I think in what, 2016?
Ante VA2BBW (00:40:07):
2013? I think.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:40:08):
So you're at the bottom of the last sun cycle. Right.
Ante VA2BBW (00:40:11):
Funny story, when I first got my license in 2008, again, I was not active really until 2009, partly because we were living in an apartment at that time. The other reason is because I didn't really know anybody on amateur radio. And again, I was doing it lone wolf style, which I don't recommend, but when I bought my first rig, so my first rig was a Yaesu 857, and I was so excited when I got the rig, I said, I'll be able to talk to these people all over the world. This will be awesome. And I get it home, I plug in my very basic dipole antenna. I think the first antenna I made was a 10 meter dipole. And of course at that point in the sunspot cycle, 10 meters was dead. So I was tuning across 10 meters. I couldn't hear anything. I'm like, okay, there's nobody there.
Ante VA2BBW (00:41:01):
Tune across the other bands just to hear if there's something. And there really wasn't much. And I thought, I went back to the store, this was when I started. So very naive. You don't know much when you're starting out. You read all the theory, but until you practice. So I go back to the store and I talked to the guy, nice guy. I said, can you check? I don't know if my, I think my rig might not be working. I'm not hearing anything. So he plugs it in and of course he knows all the WWV stations and the local here in Canada, we've got these CHU time signals as well. So he tuned into those and said, no, it's working fine. But keep in mind this is sunspot cycle is at a low point. Yeah, it was at that point, yeah. I thought just starting out, I'm like, oh, I think my rigs broken. But no, was just HF was at a low point.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:41:59):
What are QRP zombies? Are you a zombie?
Ante VA2BBW (00:42:02):
Yes. So QRP zombies, it's a yearly activity. It's basically once a year you get on the air, you can get your zombie number and it's just a zombie shuffle. So slow speed CW QRP, and you just try to make contacts with other zombies. And a lot of people in the QRP community are part of different groups, so you get familiar with some of the call signs. There are quite a few local operators as well that are into QRP. So amateur radio is a hobby of hobbies. And QRP is one of those. And it's a small community of users that you recognize the call signs after a while.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:42:50):
Do you have a ham radio workbench?
Ante VA2BBW (00:42:51):
So I'm not the most technical of hams, right? So my interest is not in the designing or building or fixing or anything like that. My main interest is and always has been operating. So I'm not the biggest tinkerer, but I do have a workbench in my garage where play around. I'm building a six meter Squalo antenna right now. So I replaced some connectors in one of my radios that were those phone jacks, they were defective. But I do a bit of stuff. But the workbench is not the busiest place.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:43:35):
It's not your busiest place.
Ante VA2BBW (00:43:36):
No, no, no. The busiest place is my shack here. For sure. For sure.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:43:41):
In terms of audio gear as an audio file, I mean with all of the soundproofing and everything like that, do you run a tube amplifier?
Ante VA2BBW (00:43:50):
No.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:43:51):
Your ears aren't that discerning yet.
Ante VA2BBW (00:43:53):
Well, not that discerning or maybe I have a hard time believing some people's ears can be that discerning sometimes. So I like to keep things simple.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:44:05):
I want to take a minute to tell you about my favorite podcast, the Ham Radio Workbench podcast with George KJ6VU, and now joined by Rod VE3ON, Mike, VE3MW, Mark N6MTS, and Vince VE6LK. Every two weeks, George and Company offer up a status report on the many amateur radio projects on their workbenches and explore projects on their guests workbenches. This group is project active and prolific covering many technical areas of amateur radio. So the next time you want a deep dive into ham radio, electronic project building or to learn about technology tools, test equipment, construction techniques, and the rest, listen to the Ham Radio Workbench podcast available on every podcast player and channel. Use the link in this week's show notes page to get to the Ham Radio Workbench podcast directly. And now back to my QSO. It's my understanding that you've decided to be the radio amateurs of Canada operating Awards manager. That seems like an ominous job. What is the job and how big is the responsibility?
Ante VA2BBW (00:45:12):
It's a very fun job. So basically, I'm sure a lot of your listeners will be aware of that. Their operating wards you can apply for DXCC work, tall zones, stuff like that. Radio Amateurs of Canada, which is, you can compare it to the ARRL in Canada, right? So it's our National Amateur Radio organization. They're the voting IARU member for Canada. So they've had some awards, they've always had awards in the past. The Canada Award, which is, I guess you could compare it in a way to the worked all states award. So if you are able to show proof of contact with operators in every province and territory of Canada, there's the Worked All Rack award, which, so in the states you've got the W one A W station, and a lot of times you'll hear W one A w stroke zero, stroke six, so they can use the call sign in other areas.
Ante VA2BBW (00:46:12):
So radio amateurs of Canada, what they did is they were able to, I guess, acquire most of the RAC suffix call signs. So for example, VE3ARC, and VA3ARC. So all those call signs in every province you'll have, I think the only one that radio amateurs of Canada does not yet have is the V two A RC. But I think all the other ones they were able to acquire over the years. So the work All Rack award is for showing proof of contact with at least 10 of these RAC stations. And basically the job of the awards manager is to look after the awards I received the applications from those who want to get the awards.
Ante VA2BBW (00:47:03):
Part of the job also is coming up with either new awards or ways to promote the RAC operating awards. So I recently introduced the Canadian Century Club Award, which people can apply for if they've proof of contact with a hundred different Canadian amateur radio stations. There are a few rules there for how many per province you can have. But that was introduced recently and I've had a few successful applications already. And I also recently introduced the worked all North America Award. So for the more DX oriented people, I came up with that. So there are currently 50 entities that are in North America, 50 DX entities. And what I did is there are three levels, bronze, silver, and gold. So if you work 30, you can apply for bronze, silver or 40. And if you work all of them, you can apply for the gold.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:48:08):
How do you verify? Are you using logbook of the world or do they actually send you listings or how do you verify that these contacts were made? Or are you just kind of trust one side and not the other, or how does that work?
Ante VA2BBW (00:48:21):
So that's part of what I have to do is verify that these contacts are actually legit. And again, I trust most of these people hunting the awards. They're not making up bogus, but there is a process for each award. There's an application form. They have to fill out all the details of the contacts. And the way we do it is instead of sending us the cards or scans of the cards is they have to have the application signed by two other HEM radio operators to say that yes, we've seen, he showed us the cards, he showed us the logbook of the world confirmations or one of the things I did is also decided to allow people to use EQSL confirmations as well. Basically they have to show us the two other hands have signed, stating that we've seen, we've seen the cards, we've seen the confirmations, this is legit. And then always with, if I have a doubt for anything, it says that I have the right to ask for further proof if needed.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:49:27):
So how much time does it take for you to do this every week if it gets popular? You could be quite busy.
Ante VA2BBW (00:49:33):
I could, and my hope is to have this become more popular. To me, my biggest thing is to get people on the air and this is why. So the reason I decided to take on this position is because I enjoy paper chasing myself, and I was working towards one of the RAC awards and I checked on the website and I saw that the awards manager had decided to retire from their position and they were looking for a volunteer. So I contacted them. To me, I saw it as an opportunity to be a bit more involved and it seemed very interesting. And to be a part of promoting our national organization, I'm sure it's the same all over the world. It's hard to get members.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:50:20):
Yeah, it's hard to keep members too.
Ante VA2BBW (00:50:22):
Exactly, exactly. So
Eric 4Z1UG (00:50:23):
You have to continually show value.
Ante VA2BBW (00:50:25):
Yeah. So that's what I wanted to do and that's why I kind of wanted to revamp the RAC awards program a bit myself and the graphic designer, he's done a great job designing new awards. The ones we had before were mean they were fine, but they were kind of plain looking. And so we designed really what I think are really, really nice looking awards. We also have the text on the award in both French and English, which for listeners that are not in Canada, well, I mentioned it before. So I live in the province of Quebec, which is a francophone province. The rest of Canada is Anglophone and Canada. The two official languages of Canada are French and English. And at radio amateurs of Canada, there certainly is a desire to promote RAC in both languages. And as a francophone myself, it was important to show that. And for people in other places applying for the award, the fact that the CO, there's French and English, they might be interested in learning. Well, why is that? Part of the ham radio hobbies is learning about geography, history, politics. So maybe by, I don't want to say raising awareness, but just by having people see, oh, French and English, why is that? They might learn a bit more as well.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:51:54):
They may not know about Francophone and Quebec being a French speaking province.
Ante VA2BBW (00:52:00):
Exactly, exactly. And again, also for Quebec amateurs who are looking at radio amateurs of Canada, there's always been, without getting too political or into that quagmire, there's always been, as in all over the world, when you've got two different language groups or ethnic groups, whatever, there's always a bit of a split. And historically problems of Quebec, they have, well, they have Raki, which is a provincial organization for amateur radio, kind of similar to RAC. But what they've done now is they're basically an organization for the Quebec clubs. So there's been less membership from Quebec in Iraq, partly because language issue. So it's just my little part in try to get, everybody can get along. We can.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:52:56):
What do you think the greatest challenge to amateur radio is in your part of the
Ante VA2BBW (00:53:00):
World? In this part of the world? I don't know. I think maybe getting hams from Quebec and the rest of Canada together. There's still, again, it's not horrible, but there's still a little bit of the two solitudes we call them. One of the things, so I'm a member of the radio club here in Gatineau, and I'm also a member of one of the clubs in Ottawa, and I have friends in both provinces. I'm bilingual and one of my things I want to do is try to get those groups more involved together. We've got such a dynamic on both sides of the river. We've got really, really dynamic groups, active people, technical people, and there are some that kind of switch around and are involved with both. But yeah, that's something for me locally that I think would be great if we can get even more integration between Ottawa and gat. No.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:54:01):
Do you find Canada, that there's a big separation between say your province, Quebec province or the Ontario province and British Columbia on the other end? I mean is it two different countries?
Ante VA2BBW (00:54:13):
There is some difference. Yes, for sure. I mean, Canada is huge. It's a huge country. Each province have their own little, it's also very decentralized for certain things and each province has their own laws for different things and all that. So yeah, there is a difference. But maybe not as much.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:54:31):
I'm thinking that maybe British Columbian hams might think of going to the California ham fests versus going east for a Canadian ham fest just because it seems like it's in the same hemisphere for all
Ante VA2BBW (00:54:45):
Time. Yes, for sure. And there is also a difference in, so the reason that people get their amateur radio certificate, the reason is also different depending on the province in a lot of cases. I know in Quebec here, for example, there was a while where a lot of hunters would get their amateur radio license so they could communicate while they were out in the woods. There is a large, and this one of the RAC section managers for BC was saying there's a large Filipino community out in BC and they have their repeaters. So a lot of them will get their ticket as well, so they can talk with each other. So depending on where you are in the country, yes, there are different reasons to get your license. There are different for sure. In that regard, yes, it can be quite different.
Eric 4Z1UG (00:55:41):
What excites you the most about what's happening in amateur radio now?
Ante VA2BBW (00:55:45):
I'm happy to see, there's a couple of things I'm really interested to see where all this software defined radio stuff goes in the future. There's lot of the main manufacturers also that are basically making software defined radios. That's where things are headed. And that to me seems quite interesting. I see some potential to the new technology, new interesting, fun technology. I'm also excited about, again, all this POTA stuff, parks on the air. I mean there's beaches on the air, there's summits on the air. I'm excited about all of these because again, for me, the most important thing is to be get people on the air. And I think this is all these different groups. It's a really fun way to get people on the air, get people active, which I think is the most important thing. I mean, you can have different interests in radio, you can be more of a builder, you can be a tinkerer, but in the end, the hobby is amateur radio, right? Hobby is not called amateur electronics. It's not. So the radio part, I think it's important, very important that we get on the air, whether it's HF, VHF, the microwave bands. I mean those are very underutilized, but there's a lot of potential there. And if we don't use what we have, the risk is always there of losing
Eric 4Z1UG (00:57:16):
Ante. What advice would you give to newer returning hams?
Ante VA2BBW (00:57:19):
I would say get involved. So again, like I was saying earlier, when I first got in the hobby in 2008, I did everything on my own. And looking back, I think I would've had more fun being more active with the local clubs or being more involved. I would've learned more sooner. So I was active, like I said, from 2009 to about 2015. I was fairly active on my second go this time. So I got back on the air last summer. I'm a lot more involved, so I'm more involved with the clubs. I'm involved with radio amateurs of Canada and it's been, I think maybe COVID has also kind of pushed me to be more involved during COVID. I mean, nobody could see anybody, right? I was lucky because at work I was still able to go to work. I could still see people. But I think to get involved and really get out there and meet people, I've met some really interesting people in the local clubs here. I've met people my age also. Do
Eric 4Z1UG (00:58:32):
You see many hams in your area who are younger people like yourself or even younger who are finding ham radio and getting into it? And what is the reason that they're getting into it? Are they getting into it for the same reason that you're getting into it? Or do they find something else that seems to capture their interest?
Ante VA2BBW (00:58:50):
So that's a good question. And then that's another thing I was thinking about as well. We always talk about the age of ham radio operators and oh, we need young people in the hobby. And I think, I don't know that that's necessarily the right mentality or the right mindset. I don't think age is should be a factor. It doesn't matter whether the majority of hams are over 50 or under 30. The goal is to get people in the hobby. And whether you're 50, 80, 20, it doesn't matter. We want active interested people in the hobby. So that being said, so for example, the president of the Ottawa Valley Mobile Radio Club that I'm a member of, he's in his late seventies and he's a super active him. He's involved in all this new stuff, this new technology. He's always experimenting, so it doesn't matter in my eyes that he's 77. I'd rather have that than have a 20-year-old who's not very active or just casually interested in the hobby. I have met people my age, so I'm going to be 40 next year.
Eric 4Z1UG (01:00:03):
I think that's kind of the right age. 35, the new kids.
Ante VA2BBW (01:00:07):
Yeah. Well, it's odd to think that I'm considered one of the young ones in ham radio, but it's also a kind of demographic that we, not to complain or anything, but we kind of glance over it. We focus on the fact that so many hams are older, and we focus on the fact that we want 20 year olds to enter the hobby, and then in between it's like,
Eric 4Z1UG (01:00:28):
I know, at least for me, it's almost like feeling that this need to propagate our species. It's almost Darwinian that we feel that we have this need to do this, and I think part of it is because we feel that as old people, I hope I'll get a lot of messages from listeners that say, define old people. We have years of experience in doing things, whether it's building technique or it's the way we handle ourselves on the air or the way that we construct and build our ham radio stations or all that stuff. I guess we feel that this need that we've got to pass this on to somebody. Otherwise, it's kind of like all of this knowledge gone to waste
Ante VA2BBW (01:01:09):
To a certain extent. That's true. So for example, there are a handful of hams in the Ottawa Club that are around my age, which is awesome. We get together during the meetings and we chat, but we also chat with the older guys. We learn a lot from them too. Right, and I got no club as well. There's a whole range of ages. Some are my age as well. Yes, it's great to get younger people in the hobby, right? It's wonderful. But all these older guys, in air quotes, they have a lot of knowledge and a lot of the, I'll say the older generation grew up with ham radio as being very technical, so a lot of them got into it because they were interested in the electronics, and that's really awesome. So I learn a lot from these people because again, like I said, I'm not the most, my main interest is not necessarily in the building and the designing, it's in the operating. That's what I love to do, but you learn a lot from these older guys. You learn tricks, you learn, even just basic building stuff, like for antennas, these guys, they've built antennas for 50 years, so they can give you tips. They can give you advice and teach you stuff. Having young people doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to magically make the hobby dynamic because they're young. You need people no matter what their age. People that are passionate about the hobby, people that want to be active.
Ante VA2BBW (01:02:46):
There's some people here that enjoy doing the parks on the air stuff, and some of them are young, like me and others are in their fifties, and it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter, and when you're on the air talking to somebody, I could care less how old they are.
Eric 4Z1UG (01:03:01):
I think that's a very good point.
Ante VA2BBW (01:03:03):
Get people on the air, get active, interested people
Eric 4Z1UG (01:03:06):
Justify our use of the spectrum, all that
Ante VA2BBW (01:03:09):
Stuff. Exactly, exactly.
Eric 4Z1UG (01:03:11):
Ante. I want to thank you so much for joining me on the QSO Today podcast. Now, the listeners don't know that we spent an hour talking before we even pushed the record button, but we certainly talked about a lot of things and I really enjoyed the conversation. I enjoyed meeting you. I hope that you're representative of the young people that are coming into the hobby who also want to get on the air and make it good for all of us. With that, I want to thank you so much again and wish you 73.
Ante VA2BBW (01:03:37):
Well, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to be on.
Eric 4Z1UG (01:03:40):
That concludes this episode of QSO today. I hope that you enjoyed this QSO with Ante. Please be sure to check out the show notes that include links and information about the topics that we discussed. Go to www.qsotoday.com and put in VA2BBW in the search box at the top of the page.

You may notice that some of the episodes are transcribed into written text. If you'd like to sponsor this or any of the episodes into written text, please contact me. Support the QSO today podcast by first joining the QSO today email list by pressing on the subscribe buttons on the show notes page. I will not spam you or share your email address with anyone.

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Until next time, this is Eric 4Z1UG, 73. The QSO today podcast is a product of KEG Media Inc. Who is solely responsible for its content.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:00:00):
Caryn Eve Murray, KD2GUT, while inspired at a young age to ham radio. It wasn't until after a successful career as a professional writer and journalist that she rediscovered amateur radio in 2014. Her ham radio history was pretty thoroughly covered in a recent Ham Radio Workbench Podcast , a few weeks ago, our conversation explored her professional history leading to her reporting for Amateur Radio Newsline and her love for CW. KD2GUT is my QSO Today.
KD2GUT. This is Eric 4Z1UG. Are you there, Caryn?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:01:42):
I am. This is KD2GUT. Hi Eric.

​Eric 4Z1UG (00:01:47):
Hi Caryn. Thanks for joining me on the QSO Today podcast. Let's start at the beginning. Where did you grow up?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:01:54):
I grew up in the metropolitan New York area in Nassau County in a place called Westbury. And I lived there for the first 17 years of my life and then went off to college and there I stayed in the Washington DC area for a couple of years, returned back to the New York area because of something called unemployment college degree does not guarantee you a job. And that was lesson number one after getting the diploma.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:02:29):
So for people who don't know the New York area, the New York area could be the tip of Long Island or it could be the Jersey side. So Nassau County is where ?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:02:41):
Nassau County is, the western county of the two counties on Long Island. It is about 40 minutes east of New York City. It's not where I live presently, but that is where I grew up. And we were direct line of sight up in the sky for Kennedy Airport for anybody who's ever flown into Kennedy. One of the great thrills when I was growing up was jumping out of the car on the driveway just in time to see the SST fly overhead looking like a giant insect. And that was of course before that plane was grounded. But my God, that thing made quite an impression in the sky going overhead.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:03:27):
So you're on the approach and the departure for Kennedy. I mean, was it minute after minute air traffic coming over?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:03:36):
Thankfully, not that bad. We did see planes come and go on occasion, but I never paid attention to those, just the SST because you could not ignore that thing. I mean, you would think you were being invaded by a giant insect and it was already flying at a fairly low altitude.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:04:00):
And it flew for years weren't its first flights mid sixties, so it might've flown for 40 years.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:04:07):
My recollection on that is not that great. I believe I was already driving a car by then, so it may have been the early seventies. Yeah.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:04:23):
Do you have siblings?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:04:25):
I do. I have an older brother. He is four and a half years older. He was actually my gateway to amateur radio, although I did not open that gate until many, many years later. He and his friends would get on the air from his room and there was a flashing sign above the door to his room that said on the air, and whenever he keyed his mic, the sign would flash and he and his friends would be in there and the door would be closed to me.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:05:03):
What was his call sign?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:05:05):
WB2UJB Whiskey. Bravo Two Uniform Juliet Bravo.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:05:11):
Is he still on the air?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:05:14):
Yes. Well, he was off the air. You know the story. I would say 80 to 90% of amateur radio operators have that period of time where they stray from amateur radio and come back. And his license did lapse for a long time, college and work. So some years ago he decided to get his license back, and it was that year that I thought at age 12 I looked at the fund those guys were having and I wanted to be a novice and I studied cw, which was required. Then I didn't master it, I didn't really get too deep into it, but I began to learn it for my test, which I think was then five words a minute. And I studied electronics theory, which I had to study also to get your novice, and I didn't follow through on that because something distracted me. Horses, we'll get to that later.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:06:19):
I said, I'm a 12-year-old girl, what am I doing reading a book on electronics theory? I'd rather ride a horse. So I kind of dropped everything and went with that. But what happened was the year that my brother decided that he wanted to get his license back, get on the air and get the station of his dreams, I said, it's been a while since I've been 12 and wanting that novice, maybe I ought to do this too. Something else convinced me the time was right too. We had had in the east coast here of the United States, we had had Super-storm Sandy where power and everything else was knocked out for days and days and days. Here at my QTH, it was out for 14 days. It occurred to me if I'd had that, I would've had communication. So I went and studied that summer. It'll be 10 years, 2024, I'll be a ham for 10 years. And I got my license, I got my tech and I got that at the Great South Bay Amateur Radio Club, which I ultimately joined. And the guys said to me, well congratulations now we're going to make fun of you until you upgrade. So I went home, I said, ha, and I studied and I got my general, which is the level of my license right now, happy with it. No time right now to study for the extra. So I'll be a general, I think for the foreseeable future.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:08:02):
Normally I would ask hams at this point, how old they were when they got their license, but that was because I was thinking that they were 12. So I won't ask you how old you were when you got your license because I'm told I'm not supposed to ask, not by you, but in general, but let's go back to 12 years old if you don't mind, because I don't want to skip over the other story. And that is you were distracted by horses. Was that just a childhood distraction or did that become something that perhaps kind of set the tone for the rest of your life?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:08:40):
Like ham radio? I was absorbed in it for a while. I took lessons and every other female of a certain age coveted one of those equines, which of course is off limits when you are a student and having to do other things that kids do. So I rode on the weekends. That continued a little bit into college, not too much. I was fortunate the school I went to in Maryland had horses on the property.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:09:18):
A reason for choosing it?
Caryn KD2GUT (00:09:20):
Not at all. No, no, no, not at all. It looked like a school that I would enjoy going to. It was in the Washington DC area. It was University of Maryland College Park. They're former agricultural schools, so they had horses, they had cows, they had their own ice cream factory. Some might choose a school

Eric 4Z1UG (00:09:46):
That sounds great.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:09:49):
Some might choose a school for that, you never know. But yeah, I rode there. But for the most part, through my late teens into adulthood, I did not ride. I liked horses, but it wasn't something that I wanted to do until a friend made trouble for me some years ago and said, oh, I'm thinking of buying a horse and I'm going on a shopping trip up in Vermont. It's a riding sort of weekend. You want to come with me? And I said, well, great. I haven't ridden in 30 years. That's going to go over big. So I said, maybe I need to take some lessons at least to prepare for the trip.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:10:33):
Are you an English style rider or a western style rider?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:10:37):
English, I've only ridden English except of course on vacation trail rides, which are always western because that's easier to stay on the right side of the horse when you have a western saddle

Eric 4Z1UG (00:10:51):
Because there's a horn on the saddle.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:10:53):
People think that's what it's for. They think it's an airbag or a seatbelt,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:10:58):
A handle to hold onto.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:11:00):
Exactly. I mean if horses were born with a horn built in that position, I guess that would make them safer. But yeah, people like the western saddle, it's also a deeper seat. You actually sit more deeply into the saddle, so you stay on there more easily.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:11:20):
Were you a competitor as a teenager?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:11:23):
As a teenager, I was in a couple of shows because that's what the instructors liked the kids to do. I am not an athlete, and so this was the only thing I could do without looking stupid. And it was fun. It was schooling shows mainly, which are not official shows. They're just little shows that your particular barn puts on, and I enjoy that. But most of the appeal for me was just enjoying the horse and enjoying the horse's company

Eric 4Z1UG (00:12:03):
Is mucking the stall part of the enjoying the company.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:12:08):
It is fabulous because the horse looks at you when you're mucking and says, I got more where that came from. So yeah, they are never ending sources of amusement where that's concerned. And I guess I should fast forward to explain why I know that so well, ultimately, I did eight years ago get a horse and the mucking is a very fresh and new experience for me. Every time I go there to take care of him, he watches you missed a spot.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:12:41):
The only reason I know this is that one of my sons took English riding lessons for a while. He was not much of a sportsman, but he was an animal lover that seemed to be very important to him. And so that's why I know about some of these things like mucking the stall. Why did you choose the University of Maryland and what did you major in

Caryn KD2GUT (00:13:02):
University of Maryland scene to be close enough to the New York area, close enough to home because I started college a little young, and so going too far away really wasn't an option. And I majored in what was then called arts and humanities. They reorganized the curriculum there. So I was an arts and humanities major with an emphasis in radio, TV, film and English. I was supposed to be a double major. I was ambitious about that. And one or two semesters into it decided I was killing myself. So I would drop English to a minor because I wanted to get out a year early. I'm not sure why. I mean unemployment was waiting for me either way. Three years, four years doesn't make a difference. You're still sitting around eating ice cream sandwiches out of the freezer wondering why no one's hiring you. So I don't know what the rush was. I think that's probably my one regret. I don't have too many regrets, but my one regret is that I rushed college. I really should have stayed and had more fun.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:14:32):
It's possible, Caryn, that I stayed too long. After seven years, my wife, my fiance said, if you want to marry me, you've got to choose a major and graduate.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:14:45):
Yes. See,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:14:47):
I tell people that was before the internet and the University of California at Santa Barbara had a million volumes in their library and a reader's guide and every magazine subscription in the world. So it was like if you wanted to deep dive on any subject that caught your whim, you could spend the entire day in the library. I was very happy to do it. So you thought with an arts and humanities major that you would become an educated person and did that work out for you? Did you become an educated person even though you mentioned that perhaps you might be unemployable?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:15:22):
I became a college graduate. I don't know that that translates to being an educated person, but I did become a college graduate. I think the best education you get is out in the world. I think most of the things I've learned that are worthwhile and lasting are the things you learn every day when you get out of bed and begin your life again. But college was great because it gave a framework for problem solving.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:15:55):
Taught you how to write?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:15:57):
No, not really.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:15:58):
Oh, really? How interesting.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:16:00):
No, no, I didn't. The only writing classes I took, I took poetry. I took poetry. I took my first year in college. There was a poetry class I was desperate, desperate to take. And it's amazing when you're young and stupid and you don't realize there are things you're not supposed to do, you just go ahead and do them. And I went up to the professor of that class, I said, I want to be in your class. He says, we're a fourth level class. We're a senior level class. I said, well, I'm a freshman. He says, you're going to have to wait. I said, can I ask a favor? He said, what? I said, can I be in your class anyway? And if I can't keep up, you can throw me out. Okay. I really want to take your class and I don't want to wait a couple of years to take it. I don't know. He was a nice guy. So he let me take it and I got to stay in. And by the way, he and I became the best of friends, which our friendship extended well past my graduation. I'll always be grateful.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:17:12):
And what was the subject?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:17:14):
It was a workshop. It was a poetry writing workshop. It was poetry writing. One of those workshops where you put on a black beret and you drink espresso and you stand in front of the class and everybody goes, yeah, man, that's cool. Wow, that's heavy. That's deep. So we did that. It was just wonderful. I got to meet some very talented people. I mean, you cannot earn a living as a poet. And I remember when I contacted him after I finally got a job, my very first job as a writer at a newspaper, and I was so proud, and I wrote him and I told him what I was doing, expecting him to heap all this praise upon me. And he goes, you're selling yourself. That's so cheap.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:18:07):
That's so funny. Well, this is where you kind of snap back into the real world, right?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:18:13):
Yeah, exactly.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:18:15):
Because unfortunately, you actually have to pay rent.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:18:19):
Yes,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:18:20):
You have to eat. My doctor tells me I have to eat.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:18:23):
You have to eat at least. At least every couple of days. Yeah.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:18:28):
So you've graduated and you took a job at a newspaper. Was that your first job out?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:18:32):
No, I graduated and like I said, nobody would hire me. I wanted to be an advertising copywriter. I had done that. Actually, my ambition in life was to be a comedy writer.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:18:45):
Really?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:18:46):
Yes, yes. That's really what I want. I tell everybody, I will do this. I will be a comedy writer or I'll do advertising copy. The last thing I want to do is work for newspaper. And that was true. I'm not making that up. I would have bet all the money I had on the fact that I would never, never work for a newspaper. I have no interest in journalism whatsoever.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:19:14):
Well, you were in the center, maybe you weren't in the center of, I think television comedy writing was in Los Angeles. Wasn't that the kind of the hub, but there was certainly a lot of comedy being written on the East coast. Did you actually apply for jobs and what was the response?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:19:31):
Well, my role model, my hero, my idol is Mel Brooks, and I wanted to be him except he, but he was already Brooks and I didn't really like the hairline. I just sort of felt like I enjoyed having more hair on top of my head. But he was my role model in college. My senior thesis was a satire of Great Expectations done the way Mel Brooks had done some other, he had done Young Frankenstein, and I just felt I could tackle Charles Dickens in much the same way. And so I wrote Great Expectancies, which was about Ms. Havisham, one of the central characters in the novel. And she was pregnant forever. She was just pregnant forever. So that was, I forget the exact plot, but it got, I'll tell you, it did get so far as a reading, a courtesy reading at MGM, which still amazes me.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:20:51):
This is the script of somebody who was maybe 19, 19 or 20 years old. It was my senior thesis, and it got strictly a courtesy reading. It certainly was not fit for production. And the feedback I got from the folks very generous, kind people was invaluable to me. It told me mainly that they thought the script was funny, which, hey, I'm good with that. If you tell me it's funny, I can ride on that for years. I want it to be funny. But it wasn't visual enough that most of the humor was, it plays with your mind. It's not visual stuff that you see on the screen. And honestly, they were right. And it kind of reaffirmed for me so many years later, if your mindset is geared more toward radio than TV, you're not going to go for the visual humor. You're going to go for the stuff that tickles the brain.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:21:59):
Like Gene Shepherd perhaps.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:22:02):
Yes, exactly.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:22:04):
Theater of the Mind, obviously with Young Frankenstein, “Walk This Way”.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:22:10):
Yes.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:22:10):
That's very visual. There's other ones I would say, but maybe they're not appropriate for the QSO Today podcast. But Young Frankenstein was one of Mel Brooks' most brilliant, I think.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:22:23):
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:22:25):
I laugh just thinking about it.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:22:28):
Yeah, and I think I know which one you're referring to, but yes,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:22:32):
They were all great. I wore black the year that Madeline Khan died. I was madly in love with Madeline Kahn. So

Caryn KD2GUT (00:22:41):
Yeah,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:22:41):
But who wasn't right?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:22:43):
Brooks picked his cast. They were real repertory, and I think they moved as one. The actors contributed to the script. It was really a dynamic experience to create those movies, and he was pretty open to it. I think Mel Brooks, the people, other than a few fights he had with Gene Wilder, which ended well, I think most of his arguments were with the studio censorship.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:23:15):
Could he do Blazing Saddles today? Again, it was one of the most brilliant comedies put on film.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:23:22):
Absolutely. And without getting too deep in the weeds on that issue, I just want to say what a shame he couldn't do it today. I think we all need to laugh more and being a little

Eric 4Z1UG (00:23:36):
Well, well, it's funny, those movies Dracula Dead And Loving It. I took the whole family and my wife left the theater because me and my two sons were howling. It was so funny. With the Dracula dead and loving it, you had to watch the Francis Ford Cappola film the year before he did the thing with Gary Oldman in Dracula. So there were a lot of sight gags that he pulled off.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:24:00):
Yes,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:24:01):
That he did in that Mel Brooks stole for Dracula Dead and loving it. So you saw how ridiculous the Oldman movie was and how absolutely brilliant the Mel Brooks movie was.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:24:14):
Yeah. And genius is, what did they say? Genius is in knowing who to borrow from.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:24:23):
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So what happened? You're getting your script back. Someone read it, you're funny. Why didn't you keep doing it?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:27:44):
I'm not sure. I did briefly even take a class. I think it was the new school in Manhattan for stand-up. Why didn't I do it? I think I'm basically a behind the scenes kind of person. It takes a lot for me to get out there, and I think it would have taken too much out of me to pursue that path. And there's probably a piece of me that knew that, that I need consistency and a routine every day. Living on the edge of hysteria is fun in your teens, but I don't know that that sits well as you enter adulthood,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:28:35):
So you still have to eat. And there was this serious side of you. Did you have some influence from your family as well to kind of maintain that serious side?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:28:45):
No, they kind of let me do what I wanted. I am grateful. They always showed support. I think they foolishly or not thought I had good judgment. I don't know why, but I'm pretty happy with that. I think they were my biggest fans. My dad certainly encouraged me to be silly. He was very silly. My mom encouraged me to have practical skills and to always have those. She pretty much compelled me to take typing and compelled me to take Gregg Shorthand for anybody who remembers shorthand. I said to her, oh, you're making me do this because you think I'll only be a secretary like you. And she said, you'll always need these skills no matter what you do. I'm sorry. I gave her a hard time about that. I did, of course, take the classes she was paying for them anyway, and I did. Well, I'm sorry I gave her a hard time because eventually typing and shorthand became something I needed in college when I could write down the entire lectures in my classes and transcribe them later. And certainly as a newspaper reporter in New York City, that became invaluable for two reasons. Reason number one, I could quote people accurately while maintaining eye contact. And best of all, if they looked at my notebook, they had no clue what I was writing down because it just looked like a bunch of squiggles to them.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:30:37):
You had to take a real job. And so you took a real job as a newspaper reporter. Were you a private stringer or did you actually work for one of the newspapers?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:30:45):
Well, remember Eric, I had no news background when I left college, when I graduated, all I had done were some radio commercials. I had worked for a radio station for a while, writing and producing commercials for them. I was their copywriter. And at first I was unpaid because I told 'em I just wanted to work for them. And they said, well, we're not hiring. And I said, I didn't say you had to pay me. I just want to work for you. And they ended up hiring me, which was a gift because they're full-time copywriter left and there I was. So that really worked out beautifully. But again, as you say, you have to eat and radio, small market radio does not pay well. So from there, I fulfilled my worst nightmare. Are you ready for this? My worst nightmare. And I became a secretary. A secretary. The very thing I said to my mother, you think I'm just going to be become a secretary? Well, I became a secretary.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:31:53):
And your mother never said anything about it.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:31:56):
Never. Isn't that nice? Isn't that nice?

Eric 4Z1UG (00:32:00):
My guess is your mother was the same generation as my mother, and they were very classy about not rubbing it in.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:32:08):
Did not rub it in. And she could have, and she was very good at that, but she did not.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:32:14):
Where were you a secretary at

Caryn KD2GUT (00:32:16):
Ready for this? I was going to say, I can see you. You're sitting down, so I don't have to say, are you sitting down a newspaper? How about that? I worked at a newspaper, which is fine. I didn't want to,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:32:28):
But you can't say which one.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:32:30):
It was then called the Long Island Newspaper. It was Newsday based in Garden City, New York. And at that time of the top 10 papers in the country,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:32:41):
Was that an afternoon paper or evening paper?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:32:44):
When I was growing up, I grew up reading it. It was an afternoon paper. It did eventually become a morning paper.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:32:51):
Got to the big time.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:32:54):
Yeah, yeah.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:32:55):
When I grew up, that was also the afternoon papers were kind of the wanting to be the morning papers.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:33:02):
Exactly. And I cursed under my breath. When you're young, you don't see the direction your life is taking. And when you're young, you don't see that there's a bigger picture. You just see that you're a secretary, you have a college degree and you're miserable, and you go home and you eat ice cream sandwiches out of the freezer. And I did a lot of that. So I made friends there. They thought I was funny, imagine that they liked me and they let me write for their in-House newsletter, the employee newsletter. I said, I want to write for you guys. Can I at least write for your in-House newsletter? I'll interview employees about interesting things they're doing. And I did that. Then I started doing book reviews, freelance for the newspaper. I was secretary to the national desk in the late afternoon and into the evening I was secretary to the three managing editors and the executive editor.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:34:13):
I was a good secretary. I would hire myself. I was very good. I could type fast. I could take shorthand. I didn't like getting coffee for people because I figured they could get their own coffee. I had a little bit of attitude, but I was pleasant and I did my job, but I was miserable because the words I was writing were someone else's words. As a secretary, you are a scribe, you're not a writer. And I was frustrated and I was running out of ice cream sandwiches. And so one night I went into the managing editor's office, he had called me in and he was ready to dictate a memo. And he looks up at me and he says, why do you have that miserable look on your face? And I said, it's because I'm miserable. And he said, and why are you miserable? And I said, because I'm a secretary and that's not what I want to be.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:35:33):
He says, okay, sit down. Listen to me. He says, we can't do anything to help you. But it's like a farm team. There are certain papers that take that hire from other places, says We know they're hiring up at the Middletown Times Herald record. There's a paper up in the Hudson Valley of New York. They need people. Why don't you try out there? And if they like you, you can go with our blessings. We'd be happy for you. And like I said, Eric, I've been very lucky along the way. I think I could not have had the career I've had without these people. These are good people. So I went up to the Hudson Valley and I did my one week tryout, and they offered me a job at the end of that week as a copy editor on the news desk.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:36:48):
Well, again, keep in mind I was in my early twenties, so no filters. No filters. And I said, well, I don't really have a news background. I don't really like news and listen to this. I mean, I couldn't do this now. I don't really like news. Don't you have anything like in features and lifestyles? And they said, yeah, as a matter of fact, we do. Would you like to work for features and lifestyles? And I would love to, and as long as you're hiring me as a copy editor, can I write for you also? And they said, you can do whatever you want. So I took the job, went back, gave notice at Newsday where I was secretary. They sent me off with a really high class party, lots of good wishes, a fake front page making me the story of the day. That's a newspaper tradition.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:37:46):
You always give a front page to somebody who's leaving and off. I went to spend three years in Middletown, New York as a editor and writer, and it was a wonderful experience. And Newsday called me two years into it and asked if I would come back and what I try out on the copy desk as a copy editor. And so I said, sure. And I came back. It would've probably doubled my salary, but I was bored and I turned the job down. And that's crazy. I know. But I sort of knew myself. And I said to them, listen guys, I appreciate that you've kept in touch with me, but if I took this job purely for the money, I think you'd be getting a very unhappy person. I think I have a lot more to learn before I come back here. And I stayed up there and they called me a second time, I think about six months later, and I said, it just is not the right time. I don't feel like I have my footing yet. I mean, I'm on the farm team now and you're calling me back to the big leagues and I'm just not ready. I just don't feel I'm ready.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:39:15):
A year later, they called me again. They said, this is the last time we are starting an addition in New York City. We need reporters. Would you like to come down and talk to us? And this scared me. This terrified me because again, remember, I never took journalism. I have no news background. And not only am I being offered a job as a news reporter, it's in New York City. I mean, look at the papers you have there. You're asking me to join a team of veteran reporters. I was 24 years old, but they did it. They liked me and I was a hard worker. And they told me later, that's the only reason because they liked me and they knew I'd work hard. To go back to your earlier question, Eric, did I leave college educated? Yeah, perhaps I did. Perhaps I did to some degree. But my real education began when I came back to New York City and worked as a reporter and got really black and blue and bruised learning. I mean, you don't learn in a better classroom than New York City.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:40:47):
What were you writing about in New York City? Obviously New York City is a universe of things that you could write about.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:40:54):
Yeah. Well, in general, reporters begin doing general assignment, what I call crash and burn stuff. So shootings, police blotter, hostage situations, hostage situations, Witt, armed hostage takers. You have building collapses, fires, riots, politics, the most violent thing of all politics. And

Eric 4Z1UG (00:41:28):
Aren't those the primo positions? You would think that that would be what the stars would want because if it bleeds, it leads.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:41:36):
If it bleeds, it leads well, there's enough to go around in New York City, that's for sure. So everybody gets to do a little bit of that. Yeah, eventually I covered the state legislature. Eventually I got assigned to cover Mayor Ed Koch based at City Hall. I was apprenticed to a lot of good people in the beginning. Everybody was very kind and we had our stars, but the stars here were usually the columnists. They really were the, we had brilliant minds. Murray Kempton, who I felt was a, probably should have been a Greek philosopher, but he was born too late. He even looked like a Greek sculpture. He was an older man with chiseled features and a brilliant, brilliant way of writing. I was in federal court covering a organized crime trial for the paper one season, and Murray was in there seated a few benches away.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:42:46):
Murray was already a much older man at the time, and I was covering it for the news story, and Murray was there as the columnist, and I looked over at him. Murray was slumped over, his eyes were closed, and he was fast asleep. This was very common with Murray. He would do that. And the next day he wrote the most brilliant column. And I thought to myself, that man does better work when he sleeps than most of us do when we're awake. You get to that point when you talk about somebody with a superstar talent that was Murray Kempton. I'm happy to say it. I worked with or near the best of the best. And what that does is it drives you and inspires you to be the best you can be. Not in a competitive sense, but just because you're exposed to what human potential can be and you want to realize what you can do in your life.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:44:00):
Now, if we were going to kind of, obviously there's a lot of years between the Koch administration and the point at which you reentered amateur radio, but did you have a number of different kinds of careers after that, or did you actually stay in journalism?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:44:16):
I got into journalism from the writing and editing standpoint in 1976 and stayed in it until 2019. My long run was with the City edition called New York New State, which was closed by Times Mirror, which owned it at the time. And many of us were sent out to the suburban edition. So I stayed on with the suburban edition. I became a business writer. I became a small business columnist, and then eventually a copy editor on the features and then the news desk. And I also wrote a Sunday column, Sunday feature column for the Sunday. Well was then the Sunday magazine. I've had a lot of incarnations there. It's kept things interesting.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:45:14):
You've done something very interesting to me because before we started, I asked you if you had been a journalist all the way up to the point of going to Newsline, and you said that you weren't a journalist, so somehow you see yourself not as a journalist even though you were writing for newspapers. Is there a different, in terms of the way that you're defining what a journalist is?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:45:39):
Yeah, I think so. I think in the strictest sense, I could fill out a form, a survey form and ask occupation. And yes, I would write journalist. I'd probably write writer. I think more than journalist. I think of journalist as somebody who knows they want to write for a newspaper and is focused on news. My problem is that I like comedy writing. I've written commercials, journalism and commercials are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. And I've written ad copy and produced radio commercials. So can a journalist do that? Well, the lines are more blurred now in 2023, but back then one did not touch the other. They were in separate rooms. So my thought is I'm more a writer than a journalist, but because of my years in the newspaper business, I've learned journalism. I practiced journalism. My heart and soul is just in writing.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:46:58):
I mean, think back to what my former college professor said when he heard that I was working for a newspaper, you would think he expected, let's just say the word. He used conjured images of me standing under a red light on a street corner, and he did use a word. I said to him, I have to eat. I have to eat. It's still riding. And I basically said to him, just because it's prose doesn't mean it cannot have elements of poetry. You're not going to do that for a crime scene story, but certainly you're going to do it for a feature story. Words or words, every word.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:47:48):
I read newspapers today, it seems that every reporter wants to be a columnist. I see a lot of editorial on every page about the editorial page where the big columnists get to put their stuff. But I don't see that journalists today follow the traditional path of journalists. At the time that you entered the business,

Caryn KD2GUT (00:48:09):
No,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:48:10):
The writing that you learned to do is so invaluable. Are you applying those same skills to say Amateur Radio Newsline?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:48:18):
Yeah. I'm glad you asked. Yeah, I'm glad you asked. I wanted to make that point. I don't feel comfortable criticizing where journalism is going now, but I'll just say this and you can draw a conclusion from that. I left the business in 2019. The newspaper had a buyout, which I had been waiting for forever, and happily took it and moved on to the rest of my life. And I'm very glad. And let me say upfront, I'm very grateful for all the years I had and every single person who helped me. So I have only the best and happiest memories of all those years, and that is what I bring to Newsline. I not what you hear and see presently, which is different. For better or worse, it's different. We don't get into the he said, she said of the story. In other words, we don't get into personal disputes, we don't get into nuance, we don't get into rumor, and we do not get into politics, nor does amateur radio, nor should amateur radio.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:49:53):
So Newsline is a blend of, I hope, old school journalism and traditional amateur radio ethics. And that's what I hope every week people hear along with some funny stuff, Hey, I get to do comedy writing too. Sometimes I really do, because the showpiece of our newscast is the kicker. It's the end piece. And we've had some real fun with that. And you can have fun. You can do the news and have fun. But I think when it comes down to the serious stuff, you have to realize you are responsible for telling people what they either need to know or want to know. You have to do it responsibly. You can't take one person's word for it. You have to check your facts. You have to check their facts, and you have to be sure that when the newscast goes out, the world is hearing what they should be hearing correctly without bias. And we hope without error, and certainly without malice, and most definitely without agenda,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:51:13):
Probably most of the papers I see, if you want to get details, it's impossible from the papers. Every column on the front page is somebody's native ad or commentary or editorial or their viewpoint. And all you want to know is what's happening.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:51:33):
I credit my history degree as one I'm able to write, and two, I'm able to dig because you had to dig and you had professors that were telling you, well, where's your primary sources? Nobody is going after primary sources anymore, except maybe Newsline. That's what I appreciate so much about Newsline on the one hand, but this is what I'm not appreciating about most of the media that I'm seeing these days is because it has an agenda and it's being purchased by whoever is paying the bills, the advertising bills. I feel like what a waste. It would be nice to have a paper on the breakfast table that actually had some news in it.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:52:10):
Eric, I think you're calling it the way it is. I think there are a lot of people who hear what you're saying and would be nodding their head in agreement.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:52:20):
And by the way, Caryn, the people that are writing don't have the education. They don't have history, they don't have literature. They may know how to write in the formula that they're being taught to write, but they're lacking so much.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:52:35):
You need context. You do you absolutely

Eric 4Z1UG (00:52:40):
Right to actually understand who the players are, but it doesn't sell Ozempic.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:52:47):
Yeah, this is a problem. This is a problem because the business is killing the business, essentially. It's at. And even for people, for instance, one of the things I have been doing since my departure from News-papering for a while, I was writing freelance stories for a software development magazine. Now you might ask, wow, what do you know about software development? And I might answer squat. I know nothing about software development. So basically this is marketing, marketing via cookies and all kinds of the changes that are going on right now with the way things are sold, how we are tracked. I had to go study it up on it in order to sound intelligent in an interview and ask questions of these people who are going to use jargon with me. And I have to know what the jargon means. What I'm saying is that no, a journalist should not be expected to be conversant in absolutely everything. If you're covering politics, you eventually learn about politics. If you're covering science, you should have a background. But from your experience as someone familiar with history, you know how to dig. And that's really the key skill.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:54:25):
Well, you always got your papers back if you didn't. Yes. If you were making assertions that weren't supported by the facts, not the facts made up, but by primary source documents, you were lambasted.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:54:40):
Oh, yeah.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:54:41):
In a kind way maybe, or even in front of your peers at a seminar. So you were very careful to make sure that what you were writing and the assertions you were making had some facts behind them.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:54:55):
Oh, absolutely. A good journalist, a good writer, a good researcher, if nothing else knows how to dig, and you have that skill, you know what that's worth. I was shocked, but not too shocked when about 12 a dozen or so years ago, I did go back to college. I thought I would get a degree and become a dietitian because I could see where newspapers were going. And I just felt I could make a difference, particularly for the geriatric population. Were not fed very well in certain congregate care. And I thought I would study that, and I loved it. I ultimately didn't get the degree. I couldn't keep up with the requirement of doing an internship for a year. Unpaid grownups can't do that. So I did drop out. But I will say this, my classmates who were many years my junior, we were all taken to the campus library to learn how to use the library, which, oh boy, this was an eyeopener. The librarian asked How many people consider Wikipedia a reliable resource? And you talk about people citing their sources. And I would say, yeah, three quarters of the hands went up.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:56:30):
This is an issue. There's no more critical thinking anymore. People absorb and accept without thinking critically. There are ways a Newsline does try to do this. Newsline will present facts, will present a story without an agenda, without anybody's agenda, and let the listener come to their own conclusion based on what they hear. And we try to use the original source if we can reach them. If not, we quote the secondary source saying the secondary source quoted the primary source. We don't do it quite that awkwardly, but we try to let people know, we've made an effort to reach people. We do the best we can. It's an honest effort, nothing more than that. And I think to some degree people, it's not that people are getting lazy. I think people are under a lot of pressure to produce more and to attract the money, attract the support, attract the advertisers, attract the readers. And so you have to pump it up. We were told that at the newspaper, oh, the lead on that story is really kind of dull. Let's pump it up. Let's, let's get the reader into it.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:57:55):
Do you think that when you went to the library with that class, that for many of those people, it might've been the first time they'd ever been in a research library?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:58:04):
Yes, absolutely.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:58:06):
I was afraid you were going to say that. We're probably pretty close to the same age. And we grew up at a time when perhaps our mother usually took us to the library once or twice a week because she had to keep up with her books. And so it gave us time to browse. And so I think I grew up in the libraries, and that's why my choice of campus was based on how big the library was.

Caryn KD2GUT (00:58:29):
Yes.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:58:30):
And that was the internet. That was the internet in those days. Because if you want information that's where you

Caryn KD2GUT (00:58:35):
Yeah, but it was a reliable internet. Well, first of all, you couldn't pick up anything more serious than a head cold in the library. Now you can get a virus on your computer by going on the internet. But also, the other thing is, the great frustration with libraries is there's never time to read every book. And there's so much wisdom in there. There's so much. Think about all the great minds that have ever existed are under one roof. And that always fascinated me, the great thinking of the world, the story of our civilization under one roof. And if you ever want to read just for Fun, a beautifully written book that is also in some ways a little tragic. It's called the Library Book, and it's a history of a library that suffered a terrible fire, a library in California that I believe turned,

Eric 4Z1UG (00:59:38):
Who's the author?

Caryn KD2GUT (00:59:39):
My goodness. This was the book I got as a gift. I should know. You know what I cannot find.

Eric 4Z1UG (00:59:45):
You could find it and send it to me. And I'll put it as a reference in here,

Caryn KD2GUT (00:59:49):
Eric. I did find it. I did find it. Susan or Susan Orlean is the author, O-R-L-E-A-N, and it's about the catastrophic fire that struck the Los Angeles Central Library. She does an amazing job because it's not just about the library. You have to read the book to understand, but it goes very, she goes very deep. She has a beautiful, elegant writing style. I think you'll enjoy it.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:01:17):
For the listeners who are saying, this isn't a podcast about amateur radio, one of the reasons that we're kind of on this track, Caryn gave an amazing interview for Ham Radio Workbench podcast. By the time this comes out, about a month or two ago, all of the ham radio discussion was mostly there, and it was very complete from what I listened to. So this is kind of why at the beginning of our conversation, we decided that we would go kind of off in a different direction, and I'm loving the direction that we're going in, and I hope that the listeners are as well. So now that we're talking about amateur radio Newsline, was there a story that you felt was the most important story so far that you've covered on Newsline and can you mention what that is?

Caryn KD2GUT (01:02:08):
Oh boy. The most important story.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:02:12):
Can you classify stories like that?

Caryn KD2GUT (01:02:15):
Don't know. I can classify them by category. I think Eric, because in eight or nine, going on nine years of doing this. Well, yes. I will say Bill Pasternak's death was a big one. Bill Pasternak, being a co-founder of Amateur Radio Newsline. And the reason I ended up being part of Newsline with his passing, I mean, the man was a giant, and when he died, the newscast shut down for many, many weeks and everybody wondered what was going to happen. And I had just been brought on board presumably to assist him because he was in bad health. So I think the most important story from a personal viewpoint is Bill Pastor's death. It changed everything for everybody involved in Newsline and for anybody who knew Bill, and a lot of people apparently really knew Bill and loved, I'm sorry, I never got to know him. Two New Yorkers who never met,

Eric 4Z1UG (01:03:37):
Although Bill was in Los Angeles for many, many years, and I think George mentioned it as well, but any of us that grew up there remembered when he started Westlink, where he was playing the news out over the repeaters.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:03:53):
That's right.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:03:53):
In Los Angeles. And then apparently, I guess he was duplicating his efforts on cassette tapes.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:03:59):
Yes.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:04:00):
And sending those all over the place so that those could be played almost nationwide. So interesting thing I had read that the Iranian revolution, where the Shah of Iran was deposed during the card administration, apparently the Ayatollah Khomeini in Paris had actually did the same thing, and that all of his speeches were sent into Iran on cassette tapes. So pre-Internet, and people were duplicating tapes and they would take a duplicated tape, make duplicates, and maybe by the time you got your tape, it was unintelligible, but still intelligible.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:04:40):
Yeah,

Eric 4Z1UG (01:04:40):
It was an amazing thing. And that's what I do remember about him. I was about to interview Bill before he passed away, and there's a few people like that that I've missed that opportunity, but I had looked so forward to interviewing Bill. So that was something that was very personal to you, even though you hadn't met him, you potentially were kind of following in the footsteps of an organization that he had created over 30 years, 40 years,

Caryn KD2GUT (01:05:07):
Years? Yeah. It was difficult for me because first of all, I was a ham maybe a year, and very new to something I was still having to learn a lot about. And here I was being told, okay, we need a newscast. It's like, yeah, but I just got here, folks. I just got here. I just got on the air. What do I do? And we did our best for a couple of weeks. We have a great team, so we were able to pull it off because everybody worked together to salvage it. I hear about him constantly, and I really enjoy that because it's my only way I'll ever get to know him. What I like Eric, is that I'm seeing in your shack there, your license plates hanging on your wall, which I remarked about earlier. And I have on the wall in my shack, a license plate. Actually the same, of course, it's a California license plate. It would be the same color, and it says WA6ITF. It's, it's a very weathered license plate. A little banged up, mounted on a block of wood. It looks beautiful. I had it put on a block of wood. It's hanging on the wall. This was sent in the mail to me about two or three years ago, quite unexpectedly, with a familiar return address from Pic, Mississippi. That being Don Wilbanks, AE5DW, he has the other license plate.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:06:55):
It depends. Do you have stickers on your license plate or do you have no stickers on your license plate?

Caryn KD2GUT (01:06:59):
No stickers. No stickers.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:07:02):
So that was the front license plate?

Caryn KD2GUT (01:07:05):
Yeah. Yeah. Bill. Bill, Pasternak’s license plate. Don had had both

Eric 4Z1UG (01:07:10):
Black and yellow or blue and yellow.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:07:13):
Oh, no. It's blue and yellow. Like yours. Like yours. And yeah,

Eric 4Z1UG (01:07:19):
Because the plates 10 years before were black and yellow.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:07:24):
Okay. That's a lot. Like New York had that too. I think. New York,

Eric 4Z1UG (01:07:29):
You could tell the age of the plates. That would've been really something. Look, it is really something that you guys have his license plates, but

Caryn KD2GUT (01:07:37):
Yeah. Yeah. When I called Don, I actually got very choked up and he said, no, this belongs to you. This belongs to you now. And he has one in his shack. And he said, this was on Bill's truck. This was his license plate. And he said, it needs to be with you in New York now.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:08:04):
Probably some bugs still on it, right when you got it.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:08:07):
Oh yeah. I scraped them off. I mean, scrape 'em off and just put 'em in the garbage, send them back to the earth.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:08:16):
The rear plates have the stickers in the upper corners, and the front plates have the bugs.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:08:21):
Yeah. Well, of course the bugs. Well, he knows I'm an animal lover. I've got the horse. I feed the squirrels. I've got the prairie dogs, and of course our little dogs that we've had here. So bugs are a welcome dead ones especially.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:08:40):
Do you have a story that you would think has been maybe the most interesting story that you've covered on amateur radio? Newsline? Maybe one that required more research, but the gold that came out of the digging was well worth it.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:08:57):
That's a tough one. That's a tough one. I don't know whether it would be something in technology. I tend to favor the stories that I really show human connection. The lost QSL card that comes around uniting three generations or the hams. We have a very active group that we cover every now and again in India where they reunite missing members of the family, which unfortunately happens a lot in India. People go missing. We had this same group. This story did fascinate me, this is the West Bengal Radio Club. They were able to intercept an effort to sell one woman into human trafficking ring, and they actually were able to locate her using amateur radio and hams in the area.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:10:12):
Really? How interesting.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:10:14):
Yeah, and this is I think about a year ago, and they were able to alert the police who got her out of the house and got the individuals who were holding her. She had been tricked into going with some presumed friends who had lured her for a price and she was going to be sold and she was transported by train to the next town over.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:10:43):
This is in India?

Caryn KD2GUT (01:10:45):
This is in India. This club goes above and beyond. This club is a bunch of hams who also sometimes function as a social service agency. They do a lot of intervention and a lot of family reunions. They're well connected throughout India, actually throughout a lot of Southeast Asia. They're amazing what they do on a shoes string budget, and I think what I like about our coverage of this group is that it shows the potential of amateur radio. Yes, you can communicate over the internet, you can communicate over WhatsApp, you can communicate over any of these social platforms. You can use Zoom, you can still pick up the telephone too. I mean, that's still there.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:11:42):
Radio is part of Nature. Radio existed before we were on this. Planet. Radio will be here after we are gone. By using the powers of this medium, the strengths we're able to do incredible things like talk to one another like rescue people, like find folks who are missing, make connections during earthquakes, during wars, during storms, all because of radio. The internet is fragile. The internet is vulnerable. I mean, yeah, radio. Okay. We have sunspots, we have our issues. A lot of us are cursing cycle 25 right now. It hasn't been very well behaved on some days, but radio is there. It will always be there. I think the fact that people can accomplish things person to person via radio is miraculous. It's why I love radio. I never went into TV. I never after briefly thinking that's where I wanted to work because radio tickles the imagination. I don't know if you're familiar with Stan Freeberg?

Eric 4Z1UG (01:13:06):
Oh, sure. Absolutely.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:13:08):
Okay. Then you know the spot he did for the old radio advertising bureau where he was trying to sell the attraction of radio and basically described the giant ice cream sundae that he had created with the helicopter flying overhead and dropping the cherry on it and the whipped cream and everything. He's trying to convince advertisers that radio has more power in the images it can create in doing that, and that has always stayed with me. That's a classic. The theater of the mind is also the theater of the best and most efficient communication, and I think as hams we tap into that.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:13:52):
As a kid, I enjoyed radio much more than I enjoyed television, probably for that same reason and just say, I enjoy reading the same way your brain has to conjure up the images that are being described.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:14:08):
Exactly. That everybody is talking about now, and we wrote about it on Newsline is the Netflix miniseries All the light we cannot see.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:14:21):
Right. I just saw that the book's much better.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:14:24):
Thank you. I was just about to say, if you have read the book, you may not want to even finish the series. If you haven't read the book and you're not a reader, the series is fine. I read the book, fell in love with it, and only got through two episodes of the series because what's the point? I know what everybody looks like. I read the book. I have the pictures in my head.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:14:50):
It was entertaining. If you weren't being a purist, you're right. If you're a purist and you read the book, then you're doing a lot of comparing. My wife said the same thing. I did enjoy the book.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:15:02):
Yeah.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:15:03):
I can say I read it probably two years ago and so therefore I didn't remember all of the details, but I agree with you. There are times when you can't really make a book into a great movie.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:15:14):
No, no. And movies. I think movies by virtue of the fact that they must be entertaining and have a box office and a commercial appeal like newspapers, like we said earlier, they're going to be vulnerable to the market and there's always going to be an element of even subtle sales pitch in there that will attract people.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:15:43):
I think that the movie industry was always commercial based just because of the cost of creating a movie, whether it was done on a sound stage in the twenties and thirties or whether it was done in Italy or Spain in the sixties. These were very expensive operations and so therefore they were very commercially based, but I think that newspapers, well, I guess they had to sell advertising subscriptions in advertising was the media, and maybe there was some kind of like the television news from the fifties through the seventies, maybe their broadcast license prevented them from being too commercially influenced.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:16:20):
You had the fairness doctrine, which does not. I don't think that's in play anymore. You basically had to present exactly the same amount of airtime to opposing views, and that does not in the United States that I don't know what happened to the fairness doctrine, but I remember that was very important. You could not compromise your license by using it as an agent of one side or the other.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:16:51):
I think the United States is the only country in the world now that allows drug advertising.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:16:57):
I love that may cause death. It's like, okay,

Eric 4Z1UG (01:17:01):
When I visit my father in America, I see these commercials are what, two, three minutes long and it seems to drive the whole machine, so it's kind of like we're way off the topic. Let me ask you, what excites you the most about what is happening in amateur radio now?

Caryn KD2GUT (01:17:17):
Okay, I'm going to go for what is, most people who know me are going to know exactly what I'm going to say. It's the resurgence in cw. It's the rebirth and the rediscovery of cw, and I know everybody loves digital and everybody's into the next great digital thing, but CW invites you to use your brain. CW requires that you learn. CW requires discipline, and ultimately if you get to a point where you can use it to communicate with others, and I don't mean a quick exchange, I mean a rag chew, even a rack Jew of 15 or 20 minutes, you connect with people, you connect with somebody else who shares your commitment to learning a code, who shares your commitment to communicating a little differently, and I think it's a wonderful thing to watch. You go back to my 12-year-old self learning CW to get my novice, that desire stayed with me over the years I was given when I got my license, a gift from one of the club members, an old J 38 key because I walked around saying, yeah, now that I got my license, I'm going to learn CW again or finish learning cw, and I never did, and every year it was, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm going to get around.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:19:00):
I'm going to get around to doing that. I'm going to learn CW and well, somebody called my bluff. I had to learn cw and I'm so grateful and I am seeing it's like two big doors being pushed open and suddenly I'm standing at the end of this really, really long hallway and it's lined with people on both sides and they're all CW ops and it's like the world. This opens the door to a world of people who are curious enough to want to communicate meaningfully in another way, and the Q says, I've had with people CW and some of them are all time military guys, and some of them are newer ops. You go to their page on QRZ.com and they all say the same thing. They say, I don't want justice a signal report from you and your QTH. I want to get to know you, and yes, that can be done in sideband, but in code it's different. It's just people are really into this.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:20:23):
I find that so interesting. I find that so interesting from the standpoint that you would think that cw, that people would just want to exchange RST. Here is RST, QTH is but the rag chewing side. Well, that's very interesting and perhaps there's, with all of the connection, electronic connection that we carry in our pockets, that truly is miraculous, on the one hand and with all the social media that everyone uses, which is maybe it's now beyond something new that there's a lot of people that really want sincere social relationships that are not social media relationships. The thing they're carrying in their pocket is not doing it. It's not making them feel part of a community. It's maybe even making them feel isolated, and so what you're saying is quite interesting that perhaps even CW because of its requirement for a little bit more, the gate is a little bit higher. It maybe creates a higher quality community. What do you think about that?

Caryn KD2GUT (01:21:29):
I agree. I think rather than higher quality, I would say a different, very different community in that you share immediate, you immediately share a bond of commitment to the code. People don't always care if you're fast or slow, just that you be copyable. The courtesy extended to other ops for the most part is tremendous. They will slow down for you. They will critique you if you want. They will have patience. What I have learned from cw, I cannot tell you, here's what it teaches you. It teaches you to accept your mistakes and learn from them. It teaches you patience with yourself. It teaches you patience with others. You cannot learn CW without messing up big time. Oh God, we all bust our own call sign. How humiliating, right? Yeah, right, but laugh at it. It's funny. I mean, it really is. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:22:55):
I went on, I did a QSO the other day. I messed up my call sign five times. What a dork, and I laugh about it because it's okay. Don't take yourself so seriously that you can't have fun. We're doing this for fun, presumably I say to people, you're getting too tightly wrapped. You're not having fun. You got to have fun or turn off the rig. This is not a JOB. We've all had jobs. This is amateur radio, and I think CW puts the fun back into it. For those of us who are like myself recovering perfectionists, this is a wonderful, wonderful way to ease up on yourself, to learn something new, to communicate with people who shared the same struggle, who understand it, who appreciate you simply for showing up. CW ops are out there looking for a rag Jew and will have patience with you and learn about you and the follow-up emails are outstanding. By the time you get a follow-up email to your rag Jew, you guys are already old friends people. It is easier to, I mean, yes, I do. I check into nets. I belong to a couple of nets, so I haven't given up on sideband and I won't say, oh yeah, I tuck my microphone away and I'm never going to use it again because I love using sideband, but there is a quality to CW up that it's a secret handshake. There you go. It's the secret handshake. It's like, you're one of us. Okay, let's have a QSO and it's magic.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:24:59):
Well, your advice then be to new or returning hams.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:25:03):
If you don't think you can do cw, try it anyway because you may surprise yourself if you don't like it, at least you tried it, but don't close the door because if I'm perfectly honest, I will say this to you when I walked around saying, oh, yeah, yeah, I started to learn CW when I was 12 and now I'm going to learn it again. Okay, brutal honesty here. I really, I said that I did not have a burning desire. I just said it because it sounded good. I mean, maybe I would do it, but maybe I wouldn't, but maybe I would, but maybe I wouldn't. Okay, but then I got the J 38 as a gift, and I've said this a number of times. Then a year or two later, my brother sent me a beautiful Vibroplex key and I was just doing signal reports in QTH, basically the quick, and I said, my God, I've been given gifts and you don't let gifts gather dust. You use them. Gifts are given for a reason.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:26:27):
Celebrate the fact that you have this and put it to good use. It's important, respect it, and so my journey began and wow, this is the best, the best. I've never enjoyed ham radio so much as now, okay, Eric, I'm coming on my 10th year. I got back into it late after my life, my horseback riding all of that 10 years in 2024, these last couple of years doing CW have been explosive. It's been wonderful. New hams, cry it. Please try cw. It'll tickle your brain. It'll make you feel good, and if you were a returning ham or a ham who's been curious about it but not curious enough about it, get a little more curious cry. It won't bite you. It won't bite you, I promise.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:27:34):
And the resources for learning CW now are light years ahead of where they were in the olden days.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:27:43):
You don't have to join the Navy, right?

Eric 4Z1UG (01:27:47):
Right. You have the Long Island CW Club and you have CW ops. Both of their learning systems are like unbelievable, unbelievably good.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:27:56):
I have connected, I have also connected, and I came into this through LICWC. I've made amazing friends, in fact, LICWC, I blessed them a thousand times. They were my gateway to doing POTA,, and I've made some outstanding friendships. These people are like family to me. My greatest progress has been made with CW Innovations. These are just amazing friends. We are a tight group of, I've become a coach with them now, and what this does is it takes people who already know CW and gets you on a more proficient level. It was only with them that I have learned, oh my God, how can this be? I'm doing a head copy. How did that happen? What did that happen? How do people do that? And I'm doing it and I'm ran chewing. Okay. I may not have racing stripes on my key, but who caress? I'm getting the message through. I'm having fun. That's okay. This is not a race. We are communicating. People. We're communicating. That's why we're on the radio and CW Innovations taught me that, and best of all, and this is the biggie for me, I made peace with the fact that yes, indeed you can make mistakes and survive. That's a big one. That's a real big one because people are afraid.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:29:35):
Yes, that's true. Because people are afraid of looking foolish in front of other people.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:29:40):
Yes,

Eric 4Z1UG (01:29:42):
So you're kind of telling them that it's okay. Everybody's been there.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:29:47):
Oh, absolutely. And we're all fine with that, and we all smile. Nobody laughs. I went back to horseback riding as an adult and I have the most wonderful horse in the world. He's a unicorn actually. But the friend that I ride with or have ridden with in the past, he got into riding in his, I want to say forties or fifties, and he's a guy, so an older man in riding breaches is kind of unusual, especially he's an electrical contractor, so he's a tradesman, so strutting around in your breaches is bound to attract attention. But he said to me, and he's a very wise man, he said to me, it's really hard to learn to ride when you're a grownup, and this is true of anything, substitute, whatever it is, ham radio, cw, but I'll say riding because I'm quoting my friend. He says, you have to be willing to look stupid in front of other people. You have to be willing to fail in front of other people. You have to be willing to make mistakes in front of other people, and as grownups, we don't like that because we figure by now we should know everything and he's right. Yeah. Right.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:31:03):
Yes, that's very true. Caryn, this has been for me over the top. I knew that we would have to go in a different direction because Radio Workbench did it so well with you when they interviewed you last, so I hope that the people will go to do both, and I'll put the link in to the show notes for the episode of the Ham Radio Workbench where you were at, so that they'll listen to that and they'll listen to this, and then they'll know Caryn Eve Murray, KD2GUT, much better than they did before. With that, I want to thank you so much and wish you 73.

Caryn KD2GUT (01:31:39):
Thank you, Eric. 73 for now.

Eric 4Z1UG (01:31:42):
That concludes this episode of QSO Today. I hope that you enjoyed this QSO with Caryn. Please be sure to check out the show notes that include links and information about the topics that we discussed. Go to www.qsotoday.com and put in KD2GUT in the search box at the top of the page. You may notice that some of the episodes are transcribed into written text. If you'd like to sponsor this or any of the episodes into written text, please contact me. Support the QSO Today podcast by first joining the QSO Today email list by pressing on the subscribe buttons on the show notes page. I will not spam you or share your email address with anyone. Become a listener sponsor monthly or annually by clicking on the sponsor buttons on the show notes pages. Your value for value support is recognized on the QSO Today podcast and in the weekly show notes, use our Amazon link when you shop on Amazon. Clicking on this link before you enter Amazon will allow Amazon to pay us a small commission on what you purchase. This is a very painless way to support the QSO Today podcast. QSO Today is syndicated on every podcast platform, including Spotify in the iTunes store.


Until next time, this is Eric 4Z1UG. 73.


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